# Rifling and Muzzle Rise

Discussion in 'General Rifle Discussion' started by BillM, Jul 10, 2013.

1. ### BillMActive MemberSupporter

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Shamelessly pulled this from another forum. It is part of a larger
post about muzzle brakes--but this clip is not out of context.

Comments? Personally I am just a wee bit skeptical.

"The actual physics that cause the barrel to rise is the the spin on the bullet (i.e. the twist rate) - change the rifling to the other direction and the barrel would go down not up. I think that the concept of rifling a barrel must have been invented in the northern hemisphere by right handed people."

2. ### texaswoodworkerNew Member

Interesting theory. Subscribed. I'd like to hear more about this.

3. ### MisterMcCoolWell-Known MemberSupporter

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If the projectile comes out at a downward spin, change the length a bit and it comes out at an upward spin. Manufacturers don't cut barrels at a specific exit angle.

4. ### BillMActive MemberSupporter

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I thought it was worth sharing. It does bring to mind one question---
Smoothbore guns (old musket, shotgun), having no rifling twist
would by this theory have neither muzzle rise nor dip.

From my own observation over the years, this doesn't seem to be
the case. Odd.

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Cannons too.

6. ### texaswoodworkerNew Member

This got me thinking. We could possibly calculate this by finding the rotational force of a given bullet (Rotational force = moment of inertia x rotational acceleration) and then finding the direction the force is going and comparing that that to a bullet spinning in an opposite direction.

Here's what I think the results would be. I think any upward or downward force that the bullet puts on the barrel would be negligible. The reason for the muzzle flip is you. On a gun (both long gun and hand gun) your hands are positioned mostly on the bottom of the gun, below the barrel. on a long gun, your shoulder is also positioned mostly below the barrel. This means you act as a fulcrum, and you cause the muzzle rise.

Shoot a gun upside-down (not advisable) and you would most likely still see muzzle rise.

7. ### MisterMcCoolWell-Known MemberSupporter

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Last edited: Jul 10, 2013
8. ### SSGN_DocWell-Known Member

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BS. Some guns do have left hand twist, and others have right hand twist, smooth bores have no twist. They all have muzzle climb. Probably more to do with bore height, stock angle/drop at the comb, and physical contact with the gun that drives the muzzle upward.

9. ### BillMActive MemberSupporter

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Actually, the muzzle goes down when you shoot one upside down. At least
on a revolver and a 1911 (watch that slide!)--both of which I have tried.

Reason? Because with the gun upside down, the resistance your body imparts
(the fulcrum) is now ABOVE the centerline of the bore.

Come to think of it, I've also shot my 1100 Remington upside down.
Little bit of muzzle dip with that one too.

10. ### texaswoodworkerNew Member

That would be correct.

On the 1100, were your hands above or below the bore? I'm guessing that they were more above it.

11. ### mrm14Active Member

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Timed muzzle brake on a large cartridge caliber in a rifle is your friend.

12. ### BillMActive MemberSupporter

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Actually--I was firing it held upside down above my head. Watched
a little too much Tom Knapp on Impossible Shots.

Recoil was pretty straight, but there was just a bit of muzzle dip. Not
difficult to shoot at all. Now--HITTING clays shooting that way, not so
easy. I'm guessing Tom practiced that shot just a bit.

13. ### VikingdadNew Member

Take a tube and bend it into a perfect "S" shape. Put a pivot in the center that allows flow from the pivot/stand through the "S" tube. Now submerge the device in a tank of water and pump water through it and out the ends of the "S". It rotates in a counter-clockwise direction (if viewing it as the "S" is properly oriented).

Next suck water into the device at the same rate. What happens? It still rotates but in which direction? Is the direction of rotation caused by the water flowing into the ends of the "S", or is it caused by the centrifugal force of the water pushing on the curves in the "S"?

The experiment has nothing to do with the OP, I have always just wondered what the answer to the puzzle is.

Muzzle rise is a direct result of the centerline of the barrel being well above the shooter's wrist, which becomes the fulcrum causing the muzzle to rotate (not rise) off of the wrist. This is the basis for the Chiappa Rhino with the round being fired from the lowest chamber on the cylinder rather than the highest chamber resulting in greatly reduced rotation.

14. ### gunnut07New Member

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muzzle climb is because of recoil.

It really is simple. For ever action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Your shoulder is not flat and square to the boar is it? Nope so it acts like a pivot point. Not all guns have upward muzzle climb either. Look at an AK ever see the muzzle break on it? They are tilted to one side.

Though Every gun must have recoil to be accurate.

I built a 22 K-Hornet and put a 1.5" 28" barrel on it thinking it would be the most accurate gun ever and look cool too. It had zero recoil I mean you could put it on the rest and set the trigger off and it wouldn't move. That rifle had worse groups than a 6" barreled shot gun shooting bb shot at 60 yards. I had the barrel turned down to a more acceptable contour same barrel and everything. We did this by turning it and shooting it the more recoil we got the better it shoot until we got a 5 shot .02" 100 yard group.

15. ### austin92New Member

What does "timed" muzzle brake mean? First time I've heard that, just curious.

16. ### BillMActive MemberSupporter

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On a muzzle brake with top/side holes (not the type with holes all around)
you rotate the brake to cancel the recoil force vectors.

Typically for a right handed shooter the gun recoils up and to the right.

Rotating the brake clockwise (looking from the butt) aligns the top vent holes
to cancel both the up recoil, and that little flip to the right. Most of my
AR's with brakes have the "top" of the brake at somewhere around the
1 o'clock position.

That person is an idiot. If he had the first clue he would understand. It is a product of geometry and leverage

18. ### tripNew Member

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Recoil can't be be cancelled. Felt recoil maybe?

19. ### therewolfNew Member

OK, let's say you have standard 4-groove rifling. Wouldn't the barrel also

be inclined to twist CCW, because only one groove and land is facing

up at the end of the barrel.

20. ### KG7ILWell-Known Member

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Direction of rifling twist has no effect. All forces due to bullet rotation and twist are equalized in the vertical component.

Bore Axis relation to the grip causes this rise.

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