Remington 700 and Winchester 70(Pre '64):What are Pros & Contros?

Discussion in 'General Rifle Discussion' started by Mark_Van_Goth, Dec 16, 2014.

  1. Mark_Van_Goth

    Mark_Van_Goth New Member

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    I would like to know what are the advantages and disadvantages of each weapon/design.
    NOTE:This is not a "What rifle is the best?" thread.I just want to know the strong and weak points of each one(E.g. Problems that I may encounter while shooting it).
     
  2. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    Had a 700 a while back my issues were poor fitment of stock and action. The problem that lead me to getting rid of it however was that i found it easy to get catridges hung/stuck under the feed rail of the receiver and magazine. I think its a poor design in that respect as its not conducive to loading easily under stress or in the dark or by feel.

    All the current winchester 70's are made by fn, feature cold hammer forged barrels and a nice modern trigger control round feed and are bedded realllllllllllly well. I think they are higher quality than the originals although the wood is not as nice as older models. Your not going to have a problem with a current production winchester 70

    If you want a push feed savage or mossberg is where you should look.

    Remington products in my opinion are not very good. I just havent seen a remington product this century ive been impressed with.

    Just my opinions.
     

  3. TLuker

    TLuker Active Member

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    I think the biggest difference is push feed vs control feed? The control feed is going to feed more reliably and that's why dangerous game hunters in general prefer it. The pre 64 Winchester is control feed and it's action is just a very robust design. The push feed is still reliable just not quite as reliable, and personally I don't think the action is as smooth on a push feed. The advantages of the push feed is that they are simple and you can just drop one bullet in and close the bolt. With a control feed you have to put the bullet in the magazine and then close the bolt. It's nice at the range to be able to just drop a bullet in.

    Push feed rifles generally cost less because there are fewer parts and they are easier to make. That's why Winchester went to push feed actions in '64. A lot of people were going to Remington because the M700 was cheaper and Winchester was trying to stay competitive. Sort of like the economy rifles today gaining such a big market share and the Remington M700 being seen as an expensive gun.

    Personally I like both. I have several Remington 700's that I love and I have a new Winchester model 70 on the way built to the pre 64 design. Personally I think the pre 64 Winchester is the best bolt action ever from a design standpoint. I think of it as almost art in terms of it's engineering. In terms of pure function I don't think there is that much difference between the Model 70 and Model 700? :)
     
  4. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    The winchester 70 action you can drop a round in and it will close. You do not need to feed from the magazine
     
  5. Mark_Van_Goth

    Mark_Van_Goth New Member

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    Hm...thanks everyone for the response.
    As far as I can understand, the Winchester has a more solid and reliable-feeding action, but the Remington has a smoother one.

    What rifle would you prefer to use in a stress situation?
    What about the barrel of each rifle?What's the max reachable range with iron sight(E.g. to hit a man-sized target in the center of the mass)?Maximum effective range?
    What kind of load should I use to maximize the rifle accuracy?
    Is there any kit to make them accept even detachable mags?
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2014
  6. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    The remington is not smoother than the winchester by any stretch. A model 70 is like butter on butter smooth.

    My wife runs a bolt action savage in 308 with a ten round box. She alawys gets setup then takes the magazine out to shoot deer. A long box mag is a detriment on a bolt gun in my opinion.

    Even on my scar17 i use a shorty 10rounder for most hunting.

    I think the perfect action is the old 1903springfield with mag cutoff. Just cutoff the full mag and drop in rounds one at a time. Can always turn it on if needed. Still a mauser action control feed. Im building one up now with a criterion barrel in 30-06

    308 or 30-06 will serve to 1000yards

    Im not a pushfeed fan.
     
  7. Mark_Van_Goth

    Mark_Van_Goth New Member

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    Noted.So tell me:What action whould you choose to build a military grade sniper rifle?Let's assume that the budget is not a problem and that the action must pass successfully enviroment tests(reliability)and must hit a target at 800-1000m?
     
  8. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    Wellllll. My goto zombie war sniper one gun fun is the scar17... Put in geiselle superscar trigger mi keymod hand guard vltor stock nightfirce 2.5-10 blue force sling and your good to go.

    With bolt action i would get a fn spr and go from there. They are built off mod70 actions with detachable mags that dont protrude
     
  9. Salvo

    Salvo New Member

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    Quality and design is considerably better on the Winchester model 70.

    The Remington model 700 has more aftermarket stuff for it, and you don't have to be as good a gunsmith to tweak it, so there's more people who know how to work on them.
     
  10. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    im not against push feed rifles by any stretch. i just do not think the remington current production is very good.

    i think the mossberg mvp series is very interesting with the readily available ammount of both stanag 556 and sr25/m14 pattern magazines
     
  11. greydog

    greydog Member

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    There are a lot of pros and cons to both actions. In some cases the same feature may be considered to be both pro and con. I'll attempt to cover most of them. I will reference the true pre-64 Model 70 rather than the later "Classic" action.
    Receivers:
    The Model 70 is flat bottomed with an integral recoil lug. The flat bottom resists movement from torque (pro) but is a bit more difficult to bed (con). The integral recoil lug allows barrels to be changed with no concerns about lug alignment (pro).
    The magazine rails are machined into the receiver and are very durable (pro) but modification is difficult and polishing is frequently necessary (con). The Model 70 receiver is more rigid (pro) but heavier (con). The Model 70 (pre-64) is machined from bar stock and heat treated. Good ones are pretty hard and very smooth Some later examples tend toward softness and can be a bit sticky in operation.
    The Remington 700 is machined from 4140 tubing and is generally concentric (pro). The round cross section makes bedding easy (pro) but allows the receiver to twist from torque (con). The recoil lug is separate and is clamped between the receiver and barrel shoulder. It is generous in size (pro) but difficult to align precisely (con). Feed rails in the Remington are formed by the magazine box in combination with the receiver rails. Mag lips can be bent to alter feeding and 700's usually feed quite well.
    Bolts:
    The pre-64 Model 70 bolt is machined in one piece; the bolt handle is integral (pro). The extractor is a long Mauser type which does not rotate with the bolt in operation. The claw is good sized and extraction is generally positive. If the extractor was to break (I've never seen this happen), it is easily removed and replaced. The extractor has to be considered to be a pro.
    The ejector is a thin blade which pivots in a slot in the receiver and is tensioned by a small coil spring. The ejector does not come into play until the bolt is near the end of it'stravel and the force of the ejection is dependent upon the force with which the bolt is operated.
    The Remington 700 bolt is made in three pieces with the bolt head brazed onto the bolt body at the front and the handle brazed on at the rear. If quality control is good, the bolt handle attachment is more than sufficiently strong but cannot be considered to be as good as the handle on the Model 70. That's a con. The extractor is a small circlip which is riveted into the head of the bolt if the action is older or is a magnum bolt face or it is a snap-in unit in newer standard and small bolt faces. The hook is adequately sized and when things are right, the extractor is surprisingly strong and is effective. If the extractor fails, replacement is relatively difficult and requires special tools in the case of the riveted-in extractor and some care in the case of the snap-in. In general, not as good as the Model 70. Con. The ejector is a spring loaded plunger in the bolt face which is simple and effective. Cases are flung well clear of the action regardless of the amount of effort used to operate the bolt. This may be considered either pro or con, as you wish.
    Breeching:
    The Model 70 uses a coned breech and vents gases in the case of a case rupture or high pressure failure. This is a major con.
    The Remington 700 is one of the strongest of bolt actions and handles gas by sealing the case in the chamber. A case failure which might be catastrphic in a Model 70 will probably go unnoticed in the 700 until one tries to extract the fired case. The gas handling capability and strength of the Model 700 is a definite pro.
    Triggers:
    The Model 70 is an overriding sear type trigger which is adjustable for weight of pull and overtravel. It is an exposed mechanism and debris is allowed to fall away from the mechanism. The safety is mounted on the bolt sleeve and blocks the striker. It is a three position type which allows the rifle to be unloaded with the striker still being blocked. The third position locks the bolt shut.
    The Remington 700 trigger is also an overriding sear type but is enclosed in a housing. It is adjustable for weight of pull, sear engagement, and over travel. The safety is mounted on the trigger housing and in operation, it blocks the sear. The safety must be disengaged to unload the rifle. The fully adjustable 700 trigger is easily adjusted by the owner which is a pro but can be easily misadjusted by the owner which is a definite con. The Winchester trigger is not as easily adjustable but is less prone to mis-adjustment. Overall, for a field rifle, the Winchester has to get the edge here.
    The winchester is a controlled feed type. That is to say, the round comes up out of the magazine and is held by the extractor. The 700 is a push-feed which means the cartridge is pushed ahead of the bolt. In theory the CRF Winchester has an advantage but, in reality, both rifles tend to feed and function very well.
    The sum up; I like the pre-64 Model 70 very much. It is a classy action which functions well and looks good. The gas handling sicks but by taking care not to load too hot, it's not a major issue.
    I like the 700 too. The 700 is easy to gunsmith and it is easy to build an accurate rifle on a Remington. The action is very strong and safe. I find the trigger to be satisfactory but requiring a bit more attention to maintenance than is that of the Model 70. 700's have function reliably and well under very adverse conditions. If quality control is good, the perceived shortcomings have no effect.
    For a classic hunting rifle, I would prefer the Model 70. For a target or varmint rifle, I would be likely to choose the 700. GD
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2014
  12. Mark_Van_Goth

    Mark_Van_Goth New Member

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    Wow...thanks for the useful explanation.I guess that a 700 is what I'm looking for.What barrel should I mount on it and cartridge should it be chambered in?What stock would you use?Optics?

    The rifle must...
    -Be a solid workhorse(Extremely solid and "environment-torture" resistant)
    -An accurate warhorse(As I said 800-1000m of effective range)
    -Must accepting detachable mags(5 and 10 round mags)
     
  13. mrm14

    mrm14 Active Member

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    Bartlein barrel
    I kind of like .300 WM, but I reload.
    McMillan A-5 stock
    2-25X56MM Schmidt Bender scope
    or Tangent Theta TT525P 5-25X56MM scope (kind of been looking at this one for my next build)
    +20 moa base
    Badger Ordnance detachable bottom metal (DBM)

    Also, have you considered an aftermarket receiver such as those offered by Surgeons or Defiant.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2014
  14. TLuker

    TLuker Active Member

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    "Cartridges should be fed via the magazine, not single loaded directly into the chamber, as it is difficult or impossible for the extractor to ride over the rim of a chambered cartridge. Most modern controlled feed rifles have beveled extractors that do allow single cartridges to be loaded directly into the chamber (although it is still best to feed from the magazine), but most classic controlled feed actions, especially Mauser 98's, do not."

    Here is a link to a pretty good article on the two actions:

    http://www.chuckhawks.com/controlled_push_feed.htm
     
  15. TLuker

    TLuker Active Member

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    Mark, if you want something based on a sniper rifle then I would look at Remington 5R. It is as close to an M24 as you can get without buying and M24. All though it doesn't have a detachable magazine.

    You have a lot of options for a long range rifle depending on what you want. If you want to build something based strictly on a military style then I would put a Remington 5R barrel on an M700 long action and chamber it in .308 with a McMillan stock. But there are more effective calibers for long range shooting than standard military calibers. For 800 - 1000m I would be thinking about a 7mm mag or one of the 6.5mm bullets. It all depends on what you are looking for. :)
     
  16. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    ive been using a model 70 since about 1986 on a continous basis. they feed just fine in that fashion as they are based on the 1903 springfield which is a modified mauser. one of the design changes was the military required single feed via dropping in a shell onto a full magazine with the cutoff on. they feed and extract just fine.

    actual mausers and guns like the cz550 will not function like that. those types do require magazine feeding.

    not all crf are the same as i believe the ruger m77 will function with drop in shells as well.
     
  17. Mark_Van_Goth

    Mark_Van_Goth New Member

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    At the end...I'll stick to a mauser design...A M12 would be nice.They say that retains all the good characteristics of M98, but it is much faster and easy to maintain.My first choice was a titanium M98...but it would cost me 4700 $(The action only).
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2014
  18. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    its really personal pref. the only place it REALLY matters is if your taking it to africa to hunt cape buffalo or lion or elephant or rhino... then you want to be sure the thing will extract and feed no matter what.

    remington did make some 700's in dangerous game calibers but they just dont sell to folks who actually use them as such.

    im prolly going to get a push feed mossberg mvp in 308 simply because its cheap it works and its suppressor ready under 600$ with optic rail and will shoot under 1.5 moa reliably. pretty much a very good yote/hog gun.

    ive tried running my suppressor on the scar 17 and ar15's and its just not where i want it to be sound wise due to the gas system.

    i like the wife's savage 10 but its got a 24" barrel before the suppressor goes on...
     
  19. greydog

    greydog Member

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    A couple of points: The Model 70 will close on a single loaded cartridge just fine. An unaltered Model 98 Mauser will not without pressing on the rear portion of the extractor to help it get over the rim. Modification of the Mauser extractor is not difficult but, like so many things, must be approached with care and some knowledge of what can and cannot be done.
    Push feed rifles can feed as reliably as CRF rifles. Ultimately, any rifle which has been proven to feed and function well is a good rifle regardless of the design.
    At some point, both the Winchester (post-64)and the Remington were offered with detachable magazines. The Pre-64 Model 70 never was.
    There are some significant differences between the pre-64 Model 70 and the post-64 "classic" which is the CRF model.
    The new action is longer. The bolt handle is brazed on. The feed rails are not machined into the receiver. Winchester added a gas block in an attempt to improve gas handling. GD
     
  20. greydog

    greydog Member

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    A couple of points: The Model 70 will close on a single loaded cartridge just fine. An unaltered Model 98 Mauser will not without pressing on the rear portion of the extractor to help it get over the rim. Modification of the Mauser extractor is not difficult but, like so many things, must be approached with care and some knowledge of what can and cannot be done.
    Push feed rifles can feed as reliably as CRF rifles. Ultimately, any rifle which has been proven to feed and function well is a good rifle regardless of the design.
    At some point, both the Winchester (post-64)and the Remington were offered with detachable magazines. The Pre-64 Model 70 never was.
    There are some significant differences between the pre-64 Model 70 and the post-64 "classic" which is the CRF model.
    The new action is longer. The bolt handle is brazed on. The feed rails are not machined into the receiver. Winchester added a gas block in an attempt to improve gas handling. GD