Reloading Ammo - Self Defense Ammo

Discussion in 'Legal and Activism' started by Arnie2toy, Sep 10, 2011.

  1. Arnie2toy

    Arnie2toy New Member

    9
    0
    0
    I was in a noted gun shop in Columbus Ohio & was listening to a sales person speak to an individual on reloading their own ammo for self defense and target in general. The counter person said that they would only use ammo for self defense that was factory loaded ( ie: Hornady XTP hollow point - Self defense load) because if you load your own hollow point ammo (ie: 9mm 115 gr using Horandy XTP bullets) you would be prosecuted in Ohio for specificially loading bullets designed to kill an individual. The customer at the counter explained that when they reload their ammo, they never reload max loads and normally load at the lower end of the reload data per the reloading manuals. The store employees info seemed a bit off track to me. Can anyone give me any advice as whether this info was correct as provided by the store? Thanks
     
  2. ahole

    ahole New Member

    154
    0
    0
    if you do use reloaded ammo for self defense do not tell the officer that you where using your own reloads until you have consulted your lawer after the fact. 9 times out of ten there no going to ask where did you get the bullets that where in you gun. Ill bet if you stay quite about that and not run your mouth it probably will not even be brought up as an issue.
     

  3. ttolhurst

    ttolhurst New Member

    125
    0
    0
    Massad Ayoob strongly advises against reloading self defense ammo. If you are ever prosecuted over a defensive shooting, the prosecution can use your reloaded ammo against you. They will argue that normal factory ammunition wasn't deadly enough for your purposes when you went out hunting for your victim; No, you had to specially craft hand-loaded ammunition in order to get the most lethal effect possible.

    You're better off using a popular commercial load; better yet if it's a load which is widely-adopted by law enforcement agencies. It's hard for a prosecutor to cast the cops' ammo as crazed-vigilante killer bullets.

    Besides, the irony is that today's advanced defensive ammo is more effective than the "killer" reloads, anyway.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2011
  4. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

    21,345
    224
    63
    I have known of one case, in Arizona, where an overly zealous prosecutor harped on the ammo used in a self defense shooting. Altho I have heard the rationale used by many people, there has been a scarcity of such cases.

    However, I happen to carry the same ammo as our local Sheriff's Dept. If I ever find myself in court, with a lawyer asking why I chose THAT ammo, I plan to point at the bailiff, and say "Because that is what the county issues to HIM- so I figured it would be a good choice."
     
  5. BigByrd47119

    BigByrd47119 New Member

    3,426
    0
    0
    I wonder which LGS it is that your referring to. If its the one I suspect, I'm not entirely surprised by the answer he gave, considering they quoted my fiancee $400 for a PF-9 and then quoted me $315. Sounds to me like he wanted to sell some ammo at a buck 50 a round:rolleyes:.

    Anyways, I think you would be alright. If you lived in San Francisco I could see being concerned, but I doubt most prosecutors would make an issue of it.
     
  6. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

    11,380
    1
    0
    It is not just the prosecutors you have to be concerned with. There will likely be a civil suit also. The plaintiff's attorney will no doubt use the "super-duper, flesh cutting, baby killing, handload ammo" as a means to inflame the jury against you.

    In reality, a good shoot is a good shoot. The attorneys have to use whatever BS they can to get the result they want. If you are using reloaded ammo, it will be fairly easy to prove as the extractor, ejector, breechface markings will still be present from the previous firing. These marks will conflict with your gun's markings. If you handload using new brass it will be much more difficult to prove.

    Using the ammo your local LEO's are issued is a good rule of thumb. Very difficult for an attorney to paint you as a blood thirsty heathen without attacking the local LEO's.
     
  7. RJMercer

    RJMercer New Member

    519
    0
    0
    I've been told to use factory loads for HD as well. If you are unlucky enough to have to fire a round in self defense, a team of lawyers will have -months- to pick apart every detail of a decision you had a few short -seconds- to make and the round you fired could possibly factor in to those details they examine.
     
  8. alsaqr

    alsaqr Well-Known Member Supporter

    6,130
    119
    63
    Problem is that Mas Ayoob and the other advocates of using only factory ammo for self defense can find very little to back up their claims. i once met a woman who shot a home invader five times with a .38 special using wad cutters that had been loaded backwards: Talk about a big hollowpoint. The perp died on the spot. The case went to the grand jury without charges. The grand jury gave the lady a pass.

    The vast majority of police and prosecutors could care less what the perp was shot with so long as it was a good shoot. The OK "make my day" law went into effect in 1987. Since that time no person who made a righteous shoot has ever been successfully sued in an OK court.

    If you live in one of the anti-gun People's Demokratic Republiks you might have a problem with handloaded ammo for self defense.
     
  9. ttolhurst

    ttolhurst New Member

    125
    0
    0
    I'll take Mas Ayoob's advice on just about anything every day of the week, and twice on Sunday. There's no upside to using reloads for self-defense, only downside.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2011
  10. therewolf

    therewolf New Member

    8,409
    1
    0
    "If all you usually shoot is reloads at the range, why did you

    specifically, purposely, buy factory loads to kill my

    client?"

    The attorney is going to try to make you look bad for shooting

    baby Jesus no matter what you do...
     
  11. BigByrd47119

    BigByrd47119 New Member

    3,426
    0
    0
    THAT was classic!
     
  12. Lindenwood

    Lindenwood New Member

    659
    0
    0
    Comparing yourself in any way to LE (saying you use the same ammo) could easily invite the accusation that you think you are some vigilante out fight crime.

    A prosecutor can and will turn anything on you.


    BTW, that case out of Arizona, the "Harold Fish" case, had little to do with the ammunition. It was only used as additional demonization. The issue was that he triple-tapped an unarmed man in the chest. Legally, he was already eyeball deep in hot water.

    As was stated, a good shoot is a good shoot. As long as you aren't loading tracers or HE rounds or something, you'll be fine :) .
     
  13. ttolhurst

    ttolhurst New Member

    125
    0
    0
    If only that were so.

    If you have to shoot someone in self defense, you must understand that when the police arrive, you are a suspect in a shooting. Perhaps they will figure out that you're the good guy, but you don't want to depend on that. Remember that the police are not on your side; they are there to arrest somebody for a crime, and you'll do. Do not speak to the police until you have an attorney; If you must speak, truthfully say only that you were in fear for your life. Expect that you may be arrested. Expect that even if you prevail in the end, you may spend a fortune to defend yourself.

    A "good shoot" is no guarantee of everything coming out all right.
     
  14. AIKIJUTSU

    AIKIJUTSU New Member

    2,883
    0
    0
    The main thing we need is to elliminate any excuse that we can for a prosecutor or witness to generate a negative impression of our motives. It will be painful enough to have gone thru the experience of having to take another life to save your own. But then to have an ambitious lawyer try to feed you to the wolves to put another notch in his gun is where you really need the best self-defense you can muster. So carry a gun that is not a "Rambo special", nor a Dirty Harry image. Load it with middle of the road factory ammo, and learn the skills to be able to place a shot where the ammo will not need to be extraordinary to shut down the BG. And NEVER let friends and aquaintances hear you mouthing off about "wasting" someone, or other such talk. Someone who laughs with you when you do that may end up being a witness for the prosecution.
     
  15. Lindenwood

    Lindenwood New Member

    659
    0
    0
    A prosecutor can demonize ANYTHING if he wants to...

    "And see, he intentionally made his own ammunition less powerful than what he could find off the shelf, so he could more easily put round after round into my victimized client."

    "And see, he even chose ammunition our brave police officers use because he thought they would have chosen the deadliest ammunition around."

    "And see, he even chose Full Metal Jacket ammunition because it is widely known that they are still effective after passing through doors and cars, situations only our military face--the vigilante!"

    "And see, he chose a .40-caliber handgun when a lower-powered round could have been used without so gravely injuring my client."

    "And see, he practices often just waiting for the chance to exact his own vigilante street-justice against victims like my client!"

    "And see, he picked some of the most expensive "cop killing" ammo around, the deadly Black Talon loading, because he wanted to make sure whoever he shot died the most painful death possible!"

    See what I mean? Any aggressive prosecutor can and will come up with any of these (took me about a minute), and any decent defense attourney will shoot them down with no problem.
     
  16. alsaqr

    alsaqr Well-Known Member Supporter

    6,130
    119
    63
    Some folks like to cite the Fish case and a case out of OK where a guy who had been boozing decided to become a traffic cop. The OK guy was found not guilty after he lost his job, his home and his life savings.

    If you find yourself in court charged with the death of a perp you have already failed three tests:

    1. The cops most likely did not believe your story.

    2. The prosecutor did not believe your story.

    3. Most importantly, the grand jury did not believe your story.

    Ersland, the OK City pharamacist, is in jail for life because he lied to the cops, tampered with the crime scene, planted "evidence", and jumped before the TV cameras like he had saved the world from evil.

    Folks, i've been through this stuff twice. First time the prosecutor refused to take my wife and i to the grand jury. Last time the grand jury refused to indict; after deliberating for about ten minutes.
     
  17. alsaqr

    alsaqr Well-Known Member Supporter

    6,130
    119
    63
    A
    Good post. Recently a cop in Pueblo, Co arrested a perp on I-25. In the car was 100 Kg (220 pounds) of cocaine. The perp had an invalid drivers license and no insurance. You'd think the dope smugglers would hire drivers with squeaky clean driving records. :D

    Pueblo police seize $10 million of cocaine in rental car, two arrested - The Denver Post

     
  18. Tackleberry1

    Tackleberry1 New Member

    6,165
    0
    0
    2nd C3.

    Personally I test fire several defensive loads in the weight I'm looking for and pick the factory load that shoots the best through my chosen carry piece. I would certainly go with whatever the Clark County Sheriff's office issues "if it hit to point of aim and grouped well" in my gun.

    TACK
     
  19. JonM

    JonM Moderator

    20,110
    15
    38
    the police arent out to get anyone. they just take orders from the dirt bags that we the people elect to office.

    if you elect a dirt bag mayor he is assuredly going to appoint a dirt bag as chief of police. same for electing sheriffs.

    if you dont like your local police ticketing speeders as their primary job duty elect public officials who will re-direct their efforts to an active you prefer. the citizen complaining about police is solely responsible for putting the police leadership in charge of that road cop's activities.

    think about it
     
  20. lonewolf101

    lonewolf101 New Member

    528
    0
    0
    how are going to know it was a reload?.