ReLoad 9mm for Rifle Question

Discussion in 'Ammunition & Reloading' started by craighmarshall, Apr 3, 2010.

  1. craighmarshall

    craighmarshall New Member

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    Picked up a Marlin Camp 9 and love it. Wish it was the 45, but what the hell.

    Here is my problem.
    Loading for my XDM 9 with 124gr FN, RN and HP using Berry's Copper Plated and Rainier's. Now I want to load for the Camp but have a few questions.

    If I am using 4.8gr Bullseye which is pushing 1150fps and the manufacturer recommends not exceeding 1200fps should I change my powder to a slower burn such as Alliant's Reloader 7? This is designed for a carbine, magnum, varmint rifle up to a 308?

    I am thinking that there is an added pressure buildup due to the length of the barrel @ 16". Not sure of the twist ratio.
     
  2. dunerunner

    dunerunner New Member

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    From a post on Marlin Model 9 Semi-Auto 9mm Carbine

    Ammunition Bullet Weight Velocity Accuracy
    Cor-Bon DPX 115 1330 1.75"
    Cor-Bon PB 100 1692 5.375"
    Cor-Bon HP 115 1532 0.875"
    GECO FMJ 124 1306
    Buffalo Bore HP 115 1646 3.5"
    Buffalo Bore HP 124 1458 2.125"
    Buffalo Bore HP 147 1225 1.375"
    Federal HS 147 1155 0.75"

    I know this doesn't answer your question but apparently there are muzzle velocities above what you stated listed and tested here. Interesting the Federal HS at 1155 fps has the best accuracy.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2010

  3. jeepcreep927

    jeepcreep927 New Member

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    R7 is not suitable for 9mm or any cartridge close to it. Doen't matter if it's in a carbine or handgun. The burn rate is way off. Ammoguide lists R7 for 17-222 through 50 Alaskan, and a bunch of cartridges in between, but nothing even remotely close to 9mm. It is WAAAAY too slow. On a burn rate chart listing 173 powders, Bullseye is #6, R7 is #93. Vihtavuori 20N29 is the slowest powder listed on my chart at #173. R7 is almost in the middle of Bullseye and 20N29. 20N29 is suitable to load an 850 grain bullet in a .50 BMG. That should give you some idea of the vast disparity in your powder comparisons.

    Powder is not designed around barrel length. Powder is designed with a specific burn rate, and cartridges that are suitable to use that particular powder with that burn rate are tested by powder companies whom employ people with Ph.D's and several hundred million dollars worth of test equipment.

    I realize that some people use pistol powder in reduced power rifle cartridges, but trying to taylor loads the way you are considering to adjust pressure by using rifle powder in a pistol case is not only unsafe, it's ASKING to get hurt. Not sure if you reload already, but if there is no load listed for a powder in a specific cartridge, that's because it's not safe. If you find a factory proven load for Reloader 7 in a 9x19mm, I will retract everything I have yapped about here and walk home shamefully.

    Messing with rifle powders in a pistol case that small is a bad idea but ultimately it's up to you. I doubt you'd even find a starting load using R7 in 9mm. Call me a sissy, I'm just sayin'...
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2010
  4. J T Patriot

    J T Patriot New Member

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    To me, one of the neat things about the 9 and 45 carbines and other lever guns, is having a rifle that will shoot the same ammo as your side arm. You will naturally acheive higher velocity in the longer barrel due to a better burn. Seems to defeat the purpose if loading for the carbine differently.
     
  5. craighmarshall

    craighmarshall New Member

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    Guys, maybe I an phrasing this incorrectly.

    I am using BERRY'S or Rainiers Copper Plated bullets. The manufacturers recommend NOT to exceed 1200fps as the plating may tear off while still in the gun barrel 5" or less. Now put that bullet, Copper Plated into a rifle barrel of 16". Remember I am using Bullseye powder currently and getting 1150fps which is curently UNDER the factory recomended limitations.

    The costs savings from an FMJ to a Copper Plated bullet is indeed substantial, but the copper plated is only put on by electro plating.

    My concern is the pressure buildup (if any) in the 16" barrel =
    Will there be an increase in pressure over the 4" barrel?
    Will it be considerably more?
    Should I keep the Bullseye powder and lower the charge (most likely based on the 2nd notice)?
    Should I think about a slower burn powder.
    As for Reloader 7, the factory says it is to be used for "light" rifles such as a varmint gun, 223 to a 308. Not sure where you get the 50 cal but I will not even argue as I have never used it. I am only starting to read about differant burns and quite frankly VERY CONFUSED. Needless to say, doing nothing with reloads for rifle until that knowledge is improved on.

    Oh by the way, the Copper Plated bullets are for practice rounds. when I go to the range I may shoot off a few hundred on the XDM, so I am thinking I will be doing the same for the Camp 9.

    I hope this explains why I have the concerns
     
  6. jeepcreep927

    jeepcreep927 New Member

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    There are different specs for plated bullets as I am relatively certain info for jacketed and lead bullets is not directly interchangable with plated ones.

    As far as the 50 BMG reference, that was just to give a reference to the fact that Reloader 7 is about halfway between Bullseye, which is pretty fast burning, and 20N29 (used for 50BMG) which is very slow. I was trying to illustrate the extreme ends of the spectrum and that if Bullseye is near the top (fast), 20N29 is the bottom (slow) and Reloader 7 is in the middle, that Reloader 7 is too slow for 9x19.

    My point was, Reloader 7 is NOT a suitable powder for 9mm, regardless of what type (rifle or pistol) of firearm the cartridge is fired in. Powders are specific to cartridges, not barrel length. If it says it's suitable for light varmint loads in .223, or .308, that is based on the cartridge and pressures developed in those cartridges with a given bullet weight and type, not whether the load is intended to be reduced or full power in any arbitrary cartridge. Reloader 7 is a rifle powder bottom line, with very limited applications in large capacity handgun rounds like 500 S&W.

    After some more thought last night I wondered if you had meant AA7, which is a common powder for 9x19. Since you do seem to really mean Reloader 7, I again would say no, do not try it. If there is not a published load specifically for 9x19 with a plated bullet, using Reloader 7, (which I can almost guarantee there isn't because again, Reloader 7 is not suitable for 9x19) then it's not okay to try to invent one.

    I would suggest getting load data specifically for plated bullets in your choice of weight, get the list of recommended powders, then start with the minimum load listed and not ponder what powder might produce less pressure based on a burn rate chart. Other than that, I can't offer much else.

    As an aside, what data did you use for the load charge? 4.8 grains of Bullseye with a 124 grain FMJ bullet is pretty close to max. Couple that with the difference in bullet surface with the plated bullets and things (pressures) are bound to change. I found a few loads real quick for Berry's plated 125's but none using Bullseye.
    Good luck.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2010
  7. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    Bullseye is a very fast pistol powder. Reloader 7 is a RIFLE powder. NEVER EVER EVER use rifle powder in a pistol case!

    You may find the velocity out of the 16" barrel is LOWER than out of the handgun with Bullseye. The Bullseye may reach peak pressure way before the bullet reaches the muzzle. This may cause friction to actually slow the bullet down. You may need to go to a slower PISTOL powder.
    Here is a chart that shows comparative burn rates of smokeless powders. Look at the data you are considering using and see where that powder falls on the burn rate chart.
    Powder Burn Rates
    Blue Dot and Power Pistol are both slower than Bullseye and MAY give better results.

    Keep in mind the Marlin has a "Microgroove" barrel which may be less disruptive to the plating than a traditional barrel. It may give less than satisfactory results, too. Traditional wisdom is the microgrove barrels do not give good results with cast bullets and plated bullets tend to "act" like cast bullets.

    My advise would be to chronograph your loads and shoot into a medium that will allow you to see whether the plating is holding up. Check the bore often for any signs of fouling.
     
  8. craighmarshall

    craighmarshall New Member

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    Sorry I did nbot get back sooner. I pondered on all your comments and I think
    1. I need to stay with in Pistol powders and not think rifle
    2. Based on using Bullseye, I should do a few loads in 4.1 gr/4.3gr/4.6gr.
    3. Do a chrono test to check velocity. One of you commented that maybe the velocity will drop due to peak while still in the barrel. If this were the case, I have no concern regarding the plating tearing off either in the barrel or down range.
    4. Inspect barrel after firing each group of grain to see if plating is indeed staying inside.

    Agreed?
     
  9. anm2_man

    anm2_man Member

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    Just a test on barrel length. I shoot a S&W 76 FA in 9mm. It has a 6 inch barrel. I worked up a load using TightGroup and Berrys 115gr 9mm plated projectiles. I tested the load's in a pistol and was right at 1050fps. I have shot thousands thru my Smith with no problems. A couple of weeks ago I picked up a Suomi M31 Semi auto rifle. It has a 16" barrel. I tested it last week. I shot a mag of factory (S&B 115gr 9mm) with no problems, then shot 3 mags worth of my reloads with no problems. So I would say, don't worry about the barrel length. You should not have any problems as long as your loads are below the max specified by the projectile MFG.
     
  10. craighmarshall

    craighmarshall New Member

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    Thanks.... Berry's states to keep the Vel below 1200fps.

    Based on comments above, even if I go the max charge (4.9gr), I should be below 1200 and possibly lower. So I will try the three loads lited above and see how they best shoot out to 100 yds. Think there should be some notisable drop based on the charge.
     
  11. Dcomf

    Dcomf New Member

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    Oh for the love of Pete please stop repeating that as gospel. Microgroove barrels are no less accurate than standard rifled ones with cast bullets.
     
  12. craighmarshall

    craighmarshall New Member

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    Could you elaborate on this a bit?
    What is a micro grove barrel and its effect?
    I really like shooting my Camp and I have not really had any issues as yet.
     
  13. Dcomf

    Dcomf New Member

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    There is a common misconception that Marlin's Microgroove barrels do not shoot cast bullets well. Microgroove rifling has more lands and grooves than normal rifling, the lands are not as wide or as tall. Do a search for more in depth info with pics.
     
  14. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    OK Dcomf, you win. When I say "traditional wisdom' I am obviously referring to "gospel". I guess I should have put the "may" in bold, itallics surrounded by "s.

    The fact of the matter is that many people have had less than satisfactory results with cast bullets in microgrooved barrels. That "MAY" be a result of soft lead alloys or the peculiarities of a particular barrel/load combination. I have always felt that a good, hard cast bullet should do fine in a microgrooved barrel, but have never had the opportunity to test this theory.
     
  15. Dcomf

    Dcomf New Member

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    Let me regurgitate your statement. "Do not" and "may not" are different. 'Do not' is definitive. 'May not' expresses a possibility. Given your past statements you tend to parrot "traditional wisdom" as true and implicit. Not so in this case.
     
  16. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    You must be a Democrat as you are very adept at taking things out of context. I stand behind the sentence. I explained that "traditional wisdom" says that cast bullets "do not" work well in these barrels. What is wrong with the statement? Is the statement incorrect or misleading? I think not.

    Traditional wisdom is not a universal truth. It is simply accepted by most people over a substantial period of time. There was a time when the traditional wisdom was that the Earth was flat. We now know that the traditional wisdom was incorrect.

    If you have had positive results with microgrooved barrels and cast bullets, I would love to see a detailed write up on your experiences. As I said, I feel the use of a good hard cast bullet should give acceptable results in these barrels given the proper load.

    Please do not try to twist my words into something they are not and are not intended to be.
     
  17. Dcomf

    Dcomf New Member

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    You've already lost the argument when you resorted to demeaning insults. It's not my fault you have a hard time expressing in words what you truly mean to say. Every time microgroove is mentioned someone gets their panties in a wad and has to interject that they do not shoot cast bullets. They shoot cast bullets well given certain constraints. Any rifle has limits with cast bullets.
     
  18. cpttango30

    cpttango30 New Member

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    Yes platting may come off more if velocity is pushed over the 1200 fps limit.

    That being said you need to under stand that You just don't switch powders and go after a load. You will need to find a load for that bullet that doesn't exceed the 1200 fps limit. For this you are going to need a chronograph. They can be had for as little as $70.

    I would look at Winchesters WSF the listed max is 1055 fps. These values are going to go up a little because of the longer barrel. Accurate Arms No. 2 would be another choice for a decent powder The lead load for the 124gr is 1017fps. I would use lead bullet loads for any plated bullets out there to be on the safe side.

    I would myself start looking at the Remington BULK 124gr Jacketed bullets they are not that much more than Rainer and you could push them a little faster in the carbine.
     
  19. cpttango30

    cpttango30 New Member

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    WTF are you talking about the world is still flat stop pushing the world is a ball fake science crap.
     
  20. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    I hereby declare that microgrooved barrels are the absolute best possible barrels on the planet. They will shoot all sorts of cast, swaged, jacketed and monolithic bullets equally well.

    Where is that picture of Ponch when I need it. Another one for the ignore bin.:confused: