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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi

I want to apply for an LTCF in PA and I was wondering what are some ways to get references.

It says that family cannot be considered but what is the definition of family? Meaning up to what degree/level is the family connection applicable? What if the person is like a very far away connection like a cousin of my cousin?

Any other suggestions to find references?

Also, if I am a reference for someone, am I responsible if the person is involved in a shooting incident?

I am new to this and was hoping to get some information.

Thanks.
 

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Regarding references: it's a fair assumption that "family" means someone related by blood to you. I would guess that'd apply to distant cousins the same as it would for father, mother, siblings and "close" relations.

If someone asks you to be a reference for them, no you're not vouching for that person and responsible for that person's behaviors. Reference-checking is merely an attempt by those reviewing the references to determine if there's some risk elements they had not yet uncovered, by getting someone else's opinion. (Same as, say, application for employment at Company X, where your history involves Company Y previously; it's not as though Company Y would be liable for you being a dud, any more than you'd be liable for someone's criminal misbehavior simply because you chimed in on your impressions of that person.)

How to find references? You'll need to look to your network of friends, colleagues, associates. Outside of blood relations (family) apparently.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks @G66enigma, That's what I assumed as well. By any chance do you have any links or references to validate the above like a section of the law or penal code. I am just trying to educate my self as I am learning that seeking an LTCF and perhaps owning a firearm is a huge responsibility.
 

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Here's a good initial reference, as a place to start: Handgunlaw.us/states/pennsylvania.pdf.

Use that to then dive into all of the statutes in the state you're unfamiliar with. (That PDF has links to many of the PA state statutes.)

Specifically, follow all the links underneath the "Pennsylvania CCW Links" section. That'll take you do the various statutes, the various county sheriffs' websites that describe specific requirements and details, and so on.

Definitely, head to the state's specific legislation/laws sites, online, to see the current statutes directly. Use the above links only as an overview reference for the start of your own research into what's actually written and the standards your state has for carrying, for self-defense, defense of others, defense of property, and the limitations the state you live in places on you when acting in such ways.


If you haven't already and you're a newbie when it comes to shooting and particularly to carrying, then by all means do yourself a favor and pick up one of the following two books:

In The Gravest Extreme, by Massad Ayoob -- this is the 1980s vintage book he first wrote on the use of deadly force and self-defense laws.

Gun Digest Book Of Concealed Carry, by Massad Ayoob -- basically, the second version of In The Gravest Extreme. This one's more current, in its second edition IIRC.

Either is worth every penny. It'll help you understand the essential responsibility of carrying, training, ensuring safe handling and operation.
 

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Be on a CPL firm, resume, or ANY time I've been asked to provide
references....NONE IF THEM HAVE EVERY BEEN CONTACTED!

js.....good luck Brother.
 

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Here is a helpful tip: You may not want to include your friend that is in prison, your biker buddy or your shrink as a reference.
 

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Here is a helpful tip: You may not want to include your friend that is in prison, your biker buddy or your shrink as a reference.
Depends on the buddy, and the club he rides with. Red Knights or Blue Knifhts, same with BACA, go for it.

Angels, Pagans, Warlocks, not so much.

Also, as.they ask if you are a habitual drunkard, do not use the friends you go to kegger with, especially if they have a DUI or two.

Also, last time my wife and I renewed ours, and when we got the resident LTCF, references were no longer needed. Could just be ab Erie County deal, but we didn't need them. My dad and stepmother did, in Warren County, but both are non residents.

Pick two friends that trust you, know you well, and you know them well enough to trust them, ask them I'd they are willing, and if they say yes, list them. Double check addresses and contact numbers, just in case.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Does anyone know if the references have to be from the same county or state? or just has to be someone who is US resident?
 

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Does anyone know if the references have to be from the same county or state? or just has to be someone who is US resident?
Reference checks for Pa. gun permits? Small staffs and privacy concerns make it tough -- or illegal - Elevating the news in Pittsburgh (theincline.com) Older article, but some insight.

The PA regs do not specify where the reference has to live- but I really would avoid giving them the name of your best friend who is in Abu Dhabi. Family is generally considered to be mother/father/ sibling/ spouse/ child/ grandparent/ aunt/ uncle. As far as Gomer, your 3rd cousin once removed- in some remote areas, you would eliminate half the county. My Dad was eldest of 13 kids- I have 45 first cousins!

I would say I feel your pain- but when I got my first explosives license for mining, I had to provide signatures of TEN citizens that would swear I was a person of good character. And of course all ten said they would swear I was a character...... ,
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
The biggest challenge I am having is that people I know may be reluctant to be a reference because they are afraid of the consequences that they may have to face if I get involved in something legal. I can't find it on any of the websites or in the FAQs on the Gun Permit Unit Department's site regarding this matter. I was wondering if this is addressed formally on an official site like a ".gov" site regarding where the boundary of a reference is. Similarly, for who can provide references.
 

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Call or email the office or department that issues the permit. Ask them if they have any literature, thoughts or direction. The DPS here in AZ , for example, has a couple folks on staff that answer ccw questions.
 

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The biggest challenge I am having is that people I know may be reluctant to be a reference because they are afraid of the consequences that they may have to face if I get involved in something legal. I can't find it on any of the websites or in the FAQs on the Gun Permit Unit Department's site regarding this matter. I was wondering if this is addressed formally on an official site like a ".gov" site regarding where the boundary of a reference is. Similarly, for who can provide references.
Okay. Even with as bad as the laws in NY were\are, when I was living there, no one could go after any of the 4 references for a Pistol permit, in such cases. Any of the four of them that had to fill out, and mail in, a form, rather than turn it over to you, under NY state law. On top of that, between 1996, when I applied, and 2004, when my wife did there, they changed the law. Three of mine were LE or or JPs. (CSD Seargant, NY State trooper, and the JP who married my first wife and me, and my future BIL.)

Hers all had to be civilian, no one in LE or the courts.

And that's "No gun for you!" NY. Most counties in PA hand them out like candy at the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade. Hell, here in Erie county, we have around 145,000 residents, and 225,000 issued LTCFs. Mine and my wife's were still warm, fresh from the lamination machine, when we got our resident ones, in 2014.

So I really can't see the Commonwealth going after someone who vouched for a CCer, involved in a situation where they had to use their weapon, or any court in the state allowing a "victim" or surviving family member to sue them, when there are protections under SYG and CD here, for the resident involved in a SYG or CD case.

They didn't even yank mine when I was charged with Simple Assault last year, and I was facing a max of 2 years, and couldn't legally purchase a firearm until that was cleared up, in November, under federal law.

I'd start asking, but it does seem that the reference requirement has been struck down, from what I have seen as well. Pretty sure the decision was based on a case out of Philly, a couple years back. However, it could also go by county, as I posted earlier.

Best idea I have is, if you have friends that are gun people, who also carry, approach them about it. Both of mine were LTCF holders, back in 2014, same for my wife.

Call or email the office or department that issues the permit. Ask them if they have any literature, thoughts or direction. The DPS here in AZ , for example, has a couple folks on staff that answer ccw questions.
AKA, the Sheriff's Department of the county you reside in, if a PA resident. If you are doing this as a non-resident, the county you plan on applying in.
 

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Also, while talking with them, email or on the phone, sk if they are even accepting applications of them at the moment, or processing them. In Erie county, all the ones set to expire this year were granted a state wide 6 month extension, on top of the 6 months under state law, due to the pandemic.

So they may not be issuing them right now.
 
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