Question on registration

Discussion in 'Legal and Activism' started by kdog, Apr 22, 2012.

  1. kdog

    kdog Member

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    Hi guys,

    I am in a discussion with some stztange folks regarding legal ownership of firearms in the US.

    Maybe you guys could pass me some input.

    1. Wich firearms must be registered when puchased?
    (revolvers, pistols, shotguns, etc.)

    2. Can anybody let me know, how many crimes are done in the US with legaly owned firarms and with illegal firearms?
    It would be great if you could give an official refference (not from the NRA, but from the FBI or so).
     
  2. Ranger-6

    Ranger-6 New Member

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    In the state of Michigan all firearms from a dealer require a form to be submitted. Only handguns require a purchase permit.
     

  3. JWagner

    JWagner New Member

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    In Arizona there is no registration with the state. When purchasing a gun from a dealer, the buyer must fill out a form 4473 for the federal government and get a background check done via the telephone. Then you can pay for the gun and take it home. Sales between ordinary citizens have no paperwork at all.
     
  4. opaww

    opaww New Member

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    Same for Kentucky
     
  5. kdog

    kdog Member

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    o.k. that kind of srewes up my day.... ;-(

    I hate these flipping antis!
     
  6. Jpyle

    Jpyle New Member

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    the ten ....
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2012
  7. Jpyle

    Jpyle New Member

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    All firearms, excluding BP I believe, purchased from a dealer require a NICS and a 4473, it's a federal law. There is no federal registration requirement.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2012
  8. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    Other than National Firearms Act weapons (machine guns, short barreled shotguns, etc) there is NO Federal law that requires, nor makes provision for, the registration of a firearm.

    A very few states require registration of ordinary firearms. I am NOT going to attempt to summarize the gun laws of 50 states, since that is an inch and a half thick reference book.

    When a firearm is purchased from a Dealer, the dealer is required to run a background check with authorities, have you provide 2 forms of ID, and fill out a Form 4473 (record of purchase) which the dealer retains at his shop for a period of 20 years. This is required by Federal law in all states.

    The antis have their own agenda, which frequently has little to do with facts. Would suggest that rather than try to provide them with info, that you ask THEM for info.

    Despite the fact that firearms crime has declined slightly, they will talk of the epidemic of crime. OK, so, please tell me- If there is an epidemic of drunk driving, does that mean we need to register cars?

    Criminals with guns- OK- there is a FEDERAL law on the books that provides for stiff penalties for a felon ever to be found in possession of a gun. Applies in all states. But the courts have held that felons cannot be forced to register an illegal gun. Self incrimination, y'know.

    Bottom line- a CRIMINAL is defined as one who breaks the law. If they will break a law that forbids murder, robbery, rape- does that mean they will not break a law that says they cannot have a gun?

    Do they feel that you can regulate BEHAVIOR by regulating THINGS? How well has that worked for drugs? Did it work for alcohol during prohibition?

    The mantra has been to "Keep guns out of the wrong hands". OK, in the past, those "wrong hands" have been recent immigrants (Irish), Blacks, American Indians, etc. Look up history of gun control laws. Why do the antis not feel ashamed of their racist behavior?

    Trying to argue facts to an anti is like mud wrestling with a pig- it wastes your time, and the pig enjoys it.
     
  9. wjnfirearms

    wjnfirearms New Member

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    The term "registration" is not entirely correct since there is no Federal law to register firearms. This is pretty common. I guess you could loosely say that it's registration after all in a sense. Many consider just the act of putting pen to paper making a record on an official form of the purchase/transfer registration. They may not be entirely wrong.

    Some states require sending info on purchases to some authority in the state of purchase. Here in Pennsylvania, if you buy a handgun, you also have to do a PSP Form 4-113 and send it to the Pennsylvania State Police Firearms Division for documentation of purchase. Since Pennsylvania has made themselves a "Point-of Contact" state, this is the predisposing reason for the form, right or wrong. In all states, the 4473 stays with the selling/transferring dealer until such a time that he/she closes business permanently and then they go to ATF for long term storage. The only other paperwork that may go to ATF is the form that must be filled out for multiple sales of handguns. If you buy two or more either at the same time or with the dealer's knowledge within a two week consecutive time frame, this form must be filled out and sent to them. Long guns are excluded. This form, personally, I don't like, but we have little choice but to send it in. If during an ATF audit inspection, two or more handgun 4473s are discovered in the aforementioned time frame to the same buyer and we cannot show our copy of the reporting form, it is a direct violation of our FFL. Nice, huh?

    The one thing that is nice here in the Keystone is that there is a law that there is no requirement to do any paperwork on sales or transfers of long guns to anyone 18 or over. The 4473 can be legally forgotten to do along with the Insta-Check. This is why you see so many rifles for sale at flea markets, etc. If you buy a rifle or shotgun of any kind (short barreled rifles excluded) from a private owner or dealer, you can legally refuse to do the 4473 and check and the sale has to still go on. Now, a dealer could say that he insists on doing the paperwork and form, but it would be a shop policy, not law. He may feel that it's his way of protecting his ***. Just taking a copy of the picture ID would suffice here if one felt that strongly about that and would be within his rights to do so. I've only had one client refuse to do the paperwork for a transfer of a WWII vintage rifle. I didn't push the issue. He was within his rights.

    The ATF does maintain the right to inquire about any given purchase to any dealer for cause. This has happened to me on two occassions and I was obligated to comply. I will give them this, however. They were forthright on both occassions without any hassles about the reasons for the inquiries and both times, were justified in my opinion. Once, a lower I sold was used in the commission of a crime in Texas. They were looking for straw purchases during the ownership trail of the weapon in question. The other, the San Diego field office was investigating the questionable sales activity of a supplier I was using. I had issues with the same supplier and had heard some disturbing things about them through the manufacturer of what I was buying, so I wasn't surprised by the call. I had stopped dealing with the supplier long before the call I received.

    We only need one form of picture ID here, c3. As always, though, you are an eloquent gentleman.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2012
  10. bkt

    bkt New Member

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    Depending on what you read and from whom, somewhere between 5% and 0.5% (half of one percent) of crimes involving a firearm occur with a legally-owned firearm used by its owner. The FBI has all kinds of stats on various crimes in their Uniform Crimes Report but it requires a lot of digging to determine whether firearms were used in robberies, burglaries, rapes, arsons, carjackings, etc. as well as (attempted) homicides. Google around and you'll probably find a reputable source with some useful stats. Also, check out the books "More Guns, Less Crime" and the "The Bias Against Guns".

    Why does the info provided so far screw up your day?

    Apart from Class III stuff, the feds don't register anything. Some states may or may not require registration of some/any/all firearms.

    The most significant point is this: there are several tens of millions of legally owned firearms that are not used in crimes. If easy access to firearms were really the problem antis seem to think it is, we'd all be dead by now.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2012
  11. kdog

    kdog Member

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    o.k.

    the discussion is about Zimmerman and the 17 year old kid he shot.
    The discussion came on my radar through a google alert and I hooked up inot the discussion on the german forum.

    As it seems, some of the people either live in the US or have lived in the US, but are not US citicense, but would like to see firarms banned.

    I gave them all my usual arguements, but I don`t know much about the american gun law and the registrations of firearms in the US.

    But since the firearms don`t need to be registered in the US, it kind of goves those antis the cards they need and that screwes up my day a bit.
     
  12. trip286

    trip286 New Member

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    Tell them it's none of their ****ing concern. Would they like to see me eat healthier? Stop smoking? Again, tell them to keep their noses in their own ****ing business.
     
  13. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    If they would like to see firearms banned in Germany (as they almost have) then go for it. Worked out really well the last time they let a guy from Austria do that for them. Fellow named Adolph IIRC.


    In the meantime, why do they think they have a right to dictate what we do here?

    PS- Ask when they are going to do something about those shocking laws in Germany that let 16 yr olds buy beer. Shocking, I tell you- simply shocking! (See how THEY like someone else telling them what to do!)

    PPS- How would a registration of Zimmerman's firearm have changed anything? He did not possess it illegally, last I heard.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2012
  14. Shade

    Shade New Member

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    First, something that Euro's have a tough time understanding. We, The United
    States, are 50 soveriegn states that have banded together to for a (mostly
    cohesive) Nation. Laws for many things, vary from state to state, county to
    county and city to city. For example U-turns in Illinois are generally illegal
    unless marked, in Michigan they are generally legal unless marked.

    I have been to Germany many times, and my opinion is that the laws in
    Germany are very black and white, that seems to be the cause in a lack
    of understanding our appearently schizophrenic laws... :eek: For example
    49 states allow citizens to carry concealed weapons. Illinois, the state
    I live in is now the only one that does not. As soon as we get a new
    Governor, I expect that to change.

    Concerning Martin/Zimmerman case, Zimmerman was the neighborhood
    watch captain. He was licensed to legally carry a concealled handgun.
    My understand is in Florida guns are not registered but the individual
    is licensed to carry a concealled gun. Zimmerman was licensed to carry,
    and was within the law that fateful evening.

    Mr. Zimmerman claims he was attacked by Mr. Martin, if this proves to be
    true. He was within the law of the State of Florida to draw his weapon
    and shoot Mr. Martin. When the case comes to trial I we will find out if
    the forensic evidence supports Mr. Zimmerman's story or not.

    Unfortunately, most of the open debate is on speculative or hearsay
    evidence niether which is allowed in a court of law.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2012
  15. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    I agree that the freaking Germans need to worry about Germany. If they are in OUR country, they need to abide by OUR laws. The Constitution is the overriding law of the land. The 2nd Amendment is a part of the Constitution. It is OUR sovereignty, not theirs. I REALLY get peaved when people move from point A to point B and try to dictate how point B should run its show. If you do not like the laws in point B...LEAVE.

    Kind of like the libtards that move from Kali because they screwed it up so bad and tell us that we need to do it like Kali did it. Kali is screwed up BECAUSE you DB's did it like that, dumb azz!
     
  16. kdog

    kdog Member

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    Guys, I`m with all of you and I told them, that it is none of theire business and also that, as long as they have never been in a similar situation on having to draw a weapon or almost having to draw a weapon on another person, they don`t know what the f...k they are talking about.

    This sh.t sometimes really gets to me and pi..es me off aswell.
     
  17. bkt

    bkt New Member

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    There are a few issues to consider about this. First, felons cannot purchase firearms (legally). There is an instant background check that all purchasers need to go through. Second, most crimes are committed by people who have illegally acquired firearms. Third, based on the police recording and eye witness accounts, Zimmerman did nothing illegal or wrong. I fail to understand why it would be morally superior for Zimmerman to be dead at the hands of Trayvon Martin given that Martin was the aggressor. Making firearms difficult or impossible to get in the U.S. would result in more murders and other crimes, not fewer.
     
  18. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    And from what I recall of my history lessons- the reason that Switzerland is not part of Germany had to do with every able bodied male having a rifle and ammo in his closet there in Switzerland.

    Of course, Germany would never have attempted to take over Switzerland. Unlike Poland, Czech Republic, Yugoslavia, Belgium, France, Russia, Greece, Britain, Norway, and others I have forgotten.

    And these are the Gut Volk that want to lecture us on how to do things?

    RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT.
     
  19. kdog

    kdog Member

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    that is pretty correct
     
  20. opaww

    opaww New Member

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    kdog you should move here and enjoy the gun freedoms we have. As much as I loved Germany I love America better