Proper Sight Picture And Target Mistakes!

Discussion in 'Training & Safety' started by G21.45, Jun 9, 2008.

  1. G21.45

    G21.45 New Member

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    For those who'd like to have something to refer to -


    PROPER PISTOL SIGHT PICTURE (BULLSEYE TARGET)

    [​IMG]



    PROPER PISTOL SIGHT PICTURE (HUMANOID TARGET)
    [​IMG]


    RIGHT-HANDED PISTOL SHOOTER MISTAKES

    [​IMG]



    LEFT-HANDED PISTOL SHOOTER MISTAKES

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2008
  2. matt g

    matt g New Member Supporter

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    Great info for newbie shooters, thanks for posting it.
     

  3. RL357Mag

    RL357Mag New Member

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    I'd like to see one posted depicting the sight picture of a target/sight with a military rifle having the protective sight "ears" on either side of the front post.
    A friend of mine could have used a diagram like that about ten years ago...when in his haste and nervousness while on a boar hunt, he mistook the right sight ear for the front post and gave the hog a snout full of dirt! His son quickly dispatched the now pissed-off hog with one shot from a 12 ga. Marlin Slugmaster loaded with Remington Copper Solids. The gun my friend was using was a .303 Enfield and the sight ears were almost the same height as the post...
     
  4. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    *Leaving his briefcase alone as that is OFF LIMITS*

    Excellent post, not only for new shooters, but for people that have been shooting forever without official training. Really great idea G21. +1. Hell, +2 on that post!

    JD
     
  5. G21.45

    G21.45 New Member

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    :) Thanks, everyone! I thought you guys would like to have access to those pictures. After all, people are always raising questions that pertain to these subjects; and, I've had them on my computer's hard drive (Where they only do me any good.) for years.




    PS: Did you notice how beautifully, 'fuzzy' that humanoid target is! Front sight clear .... target slightly out of focus! ;)
     
  6. ranger_sxt

    ranger_sxt New Member

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    You should really watch James Yeager's Shooting Missology.
     
  7. ScottG

    ScottG New Member

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    I'm always all over the target. I guess that means I just can't shoot straight....
     
  8. G21.45

    G21.45 New Member

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    :) No, Scott, that's not what it means. First, you need to learn how to improve your grip, and discover how to control the pistol's backstrap better, BEFORE you begin to concentrate on watching that front sight.

    (Trust me! I've been doing this for a long time.) ;)
     
  9. ravenwolf

    ravenwolf New Member

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    That a poster board can be a life or wife saver!!!! A few months ago i went to my local range went to my lane like i always do and for some reason i stoped and looked at a new poster stuck up by the range rules,made some adjustments and even i was shooting tighter groups. So a few weeks pass and i take my wife to the range to try her new compact 45 after years of carrying a revolver i knew it would be a change up for her. so after a few (failed) attemps to guide her ( im convinced that theres a grizzly in every woman somewhere lol) a light bulb went off and i remembered the poster so i pulled the poster off the wall stuck it in her lane and went back to my lane,didnt even say a word to her, about half hour later she shows up with 4 neat grouped targets and a smile. so i got to eat supper after all great post and im making a copy********for myse i mean my wife
     
  10. tbill

    tbill New Member

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    Thank You

    I have been struggling with my 25 yard shooting and I'm taking this to the range tomorrow and maybe I can get it through my thick skull where I've got the disconnect between what I know and what I'm doing.
     
  11. G21.45

    G21.45 New Member

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    OK! Think, 'Ball & Dummy Drill'. ;)

    Add a few snap caps to the live ammo mix. When you drop the hammer on the snap cap you should quickly see what you're doing wrong. Other than this: Remember what I said about, first, controlling the backstap BEFORE you attempt to concentrate on the front sight.

    I've been training young and old to shoot for many years. I'll tell you for a fact: Most people don't really have a problem with watching the front sight. They will - and do - watch the front sight. Instead, they have a larger problem with their grip, and with controlling the pistol's backstrap.

    (Pulling a pistol's trigger correctly isn't that tough to learn!) :p

    10 or 15 minutes practice, twice a day, with snap caps can work wonders for your pistol shooting skills. Even after a lifetime of pistol shooting I still begin each range session with a magazine full of snap caps whenever I can. (Clears the mind and connects the brain with the hand!) ;)
     
  12. DCJS Instructor

    DCJS Instructor Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    +100

    That video is the best training tool I have ever seen!

    However please note that I have trained with James Yeager and he is a fantastic instructor!

    I also have some concerns about the pictures posted in the OP.....

    PM me if you have questions. I am not bashing or thread hijacking.

    Tom Perroni
     
  13. G21.45

    G21.45 New Member

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    :rolleyes: Yes you are, Tom. Don't be mysterious; if you have an objection, state it. Few people take your self-serving posts all that seriously over at Glock Talk; but, this is a much smaller site where that, 'DCJS Instructor' title might be taken more seriously.

    Come on, don't be a mystery man. Say what's on your mind. Over the past 6 of 7 months I've read through any number of your posts. (Which you like to duplicate, verbatim, from one firearms website to another.) Your thinking is usually quite conventional, even dated; but, until now, I've always chosen to ignore you.

    If you take exception to something I've posted and want to, 'play the expert' - fine! I've had many a conversation with James Yeager, used to talk with him regularly at LightFighter; we've always gotten along just fine. You've chosen to make a disparaging remark about something I've posted; so, now, you should let all of us know exactly what you object to. This way we can get into it together; and, one way or another, I'm sure we'll work it out.

    Waiting to hear from you, fella. :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2008
  14. DCJS Instructor

    DCJS Instructor Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    Yes you are, Tom. Don't be mysterious; if you have an objection, state it. Few people take your self-serving posts all that seriously over at Glock Talk; but, this is a much smaller site where that, 'DCJS Instructor' title might be taken more seriously.


    O.K. You asked....

    1. I could care less what people at Glock Talk or any other forum take seriously about what I post. If you have issue with what I post then you should speak up!

    2. I hope people take the DCJS Instructor seriously I earned it from the Virginia Dept of Criminal Justice Services I am not only an Instructor but an Instructor Trainer. I am also Maryland State Police Handgun Instructor Certified, NRA etc,etc.

    The pictures you post do not represent proper sight picture. In order to get accurate hits on target the shoot must use the TOP edge of the front sight and line it up exactly with the target. In the pictures that were posted the shooter would be shooting low.

    The hand gun correction charts are in my opinion worthless.

    There are three (3) things that matter for a shooter to get accurate hits on target.

    1. Grip
    2. Front Sight Picture
    3. Trigger Control This is 75% of all shooters errors.

    Let’s get one more thing straight I don’t play expert. I work full time as a firearms instructor. Teaching for MVM OCONUS Ops. Blackwater USA. And I am the Training Director for Commonwealth Criminal Justice Academy.

    I very seldom teach civilians most of my work is Govt, Military and L.E.

    I don’t just teach on the weekends to make extra money.

    Anyone can repost pictures of someone else’s work. I may be controversial but I have to be, you see when I train people to fight with a handgun they have a 100% chance of having to use it in a real world conflict.

    You have a standing invite to attend any training class I am teaching for FREE to see if I can walk the walk not just talk the talk.

    Couple of questions for you:

    Are you a full time Firearms Instructor?
    If not what do you do for a living?
    How many years have you been teaching?
    What Certifications do you besides NRA?
    Are you a IDPA or IPSIC ranked Shooter?
    If so what ranking?

    P.S. Love your tag line at the bottom of your post!



    Tom Perroni
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2008
  15. DCJS Instructor

    DCJS Instructor Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    Yes you are, Tom. Don't be mysterious; if you have an objection, state it. Few people take your self-serving posts all that seriously over at Glock Talk; but, this is a much smaller site where that, 'DCJS Instructor' title might be taken more seriously.


    O.K. You asked....

    1. I could care less what people at Glock Talk or any other forum take seriously about what I post. If you have issue with what I post then you should speak up!

    2. I hope people take the DCJS Instructor seriously I earned it from the Virginia Dept of Criminal Justice Services I am not only an Instructor but an Instructor Trainer. I am also Maryland State Police Handgun Instructor Certified, NRA etc,etc.

    The pictures you post do not represent proper sight picture. In order to get accurate hits on target the shoot must use the TOP edge of the front sight and line it up exactly with the target. In the pictures that were posted the shooter would be shooting low.

    The hand gun correction charts are in my opinion worthless.

    There are three (3) things that matter for a shooter to get accurate hits on target.

    1. Grip
    2. Front Sight Picture
    3. Trigger Control This is 75% of all shooters errors.

    Let’s get one more thing straight I don’t play expert. I work full time as a firearms instructor. Teaching for MVM OCONUS Ops. Blackwater USA. And I am the Training Director for Commonwealth Criminal Justice Academy.

    I very seldom teach civilians most of my work is Govt, Military and L.E.

    I don’t just teach on the weekends to make extra money.

    Anyone can repost pictures of someone else’s work. I may be controversial but I have to be, you see when I train people to fight with a handgun they have a 100% chance of having to use it in a real world conflict.

    You have a standing invite to attend any training class I am teaching for FREE to see if I can walk the walk not just talk the talk.

    Couple of questions for you:

    Are you a full time Firearms Instructor?
    If not what do you do for a living?
    How many years have you been teaching?
    What Certifications do you besides NRA?
    Are you a IDPA or IPSIC ranked Shooter?
    If so what ranking?

    P.S. Love your tag line at the bottom of your post!

    This is just my $0.02 and that is probably all it is worth.

    Tom Perroni
     
  16. BigO01

    BigO01 New Member

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    Gentlemen I think what we have here is a failure to communicate !!

    The one thing that I've noticed over the years from watching people who instruct and those being instructed as well as being on both ends of it is that while advanced instructors are good the truly great instructors keep in touch with the basics of whatever is being taught .

    Often a problem is a simple loss of a basic principal of any skill .

    G21's post was just that one designed to help a novice build a solid foundation of skills from which they can improve upon with perhaps the advanced skills a person with the credentials of Mr. Perroni may have .

    Every skill has a starting place just as a building has a foundation without that solid foundation few will ever be able to reach or comprehend the finer more difficult advanced levels .

    Mr. Perroni I think in years of working with those that have their basics down and are at or on the cusp of already being advanced shooters you have become accustom to thinking and speaking at the advanced levels and have forgotten how to teach at the most basic of levels .

    After all the 6 o clock hold is the very first one a new shooter should master .
     
  17. DCJS Instructor

    DCJS Instructor Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    BigO01,

    While I agree with you in principal.

    I feel that the below mentioned are basic shooting skills.

    1. Proper Grip
    2. Front Sight Picture
    3. Trigger Control this is 75% of all shooters errors.

    What are ADVANCED SHOOTING SKILLS?

    The point in Target Shooting or Combat Shooting is to place accurate hits on target. Right?

    I will be teaching a (4) Operators course next week for some WPPS folks if they do not have a solid understanding of the basics learning how to use cover and to peal left or right or to break contact or leap frog will do them no good.

    What I teach is A way to do it not THE way to do it!

    But if any of us are going to teach Basic skills then let's teach them correctly.....While the NRA is a good choice for firearms safety training. It is in no way meant to teach handgun fighting skills.

    So the question is are you looking for target accuracy training on combat accuracy training.

    Learning how to fight with a handgun is much different that shooting at a piece of paper that is not moving or shooting back at you!

    Again just my $0.02 and that’s all it's worth.

    Make no mistake I don't care who you are you must have a solid grasp on the basic fundamentals of shooting before you can do anything else.

    I spend way to much time working on this before a course of any kind can begin. because most do not have this basic skill set. But think they do!


    Thank you for your valuabale input!

    I'm no expert I just play one 5 days a week in a classroom near you!
     
  18. G21.45

    G21.45 New Member

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    :) Hey, thanks for getting back with your specific objections! Sounds like you've already noticed that many of the instructors over at GT, full-time and otherwise, have been taking your posts with a, 'grain of salt'. As a favor to you I've already pointed out that much of what you write, too often, comes across as strongly self-serving.

    OK, fine, are you also the guy who trained that other famous government agent .... What's his name, again, Lee Paige? (Hard to believe that public tax dollars actually paid for that kind of crappy government firearms training, isn't it!) By the way, there isn't a certified NRA firearms instructor on the planet who would have made the series of dangerous and stupid mistakes that DEA agent made with a gun - Not one!

    Well, Tom, it took a lot of courage to write that! Of course they do! As a matter of fact I got them from another instructor over at GT who is presently retired from a long career as both a police armorer and trainer. Those sight pictures were good enough for him; and, they were also good enough for several people who have repeatedly posted them at GT - Where nobody else has ever objected to them. (Except, of course, you!)

    I'd like to know: Where are you getting that sight picture spiel from anyway? Forgive me for being so blunt; but, it's pure corn!

    First, no two pistols will shoot quite the same way. So, before you make an irrevocable statement on, 'exactly' where the sights should be, the first thing you need to know is the gun you're using. (They don't all shoot to the same point-of-aim!)

    Second, when you're moving at speed, a low hold on a humanoid target is actually a very good thing. (If you were quicker with a pistol - at distance - you'd already know this!)

    No! You should NOT be working with the top edge of the front sight. I have to suspect that this kind of sloppy pistol training is the effective reason, 'Why' so many so-called professionals generally miss the majority of their rapid-fire follow-up shots. Do you realize what you're actually telling me? (You are training people to use a pistol from within very close range; and, it's taking your students way too long to get off effective second and third shots.)

    If you really were an expert pistol instructor you'd already know that it takes well developed proprioceptive reflexes, fast hands, and a well conditioned recoil response in order to SETTLE THE FRONT SIGHT INTO THE REAR NOTCH before you take any rapid fire follow-up shot. (You know what I'm talking about .... the shots that better than 90% of pistol shooters always throw away!)

    Who cares about, 'exactly' where the top edge of the front sight is! When you're shooting at speed it's the whole sight picture that really matters. Settle-in your front sight and follow the target with the muzzle. (If you watch any of the really good civilian shooters handle a pistol you can see exactly what I'm talking about in the rapid fire shot dispersion that takes place on their targets.)

    In my own (albeit humble) experience, 'exact' sight alignment is not an expression that any rapid fire CQB pistol instructor should be using.

    Of course you hold this opinion. Your response is entirely predictable! Most of the internet gun jocks I've encountered don't like those charts. Kind 'a makes you wonder, 'Why' The Army Marksmanship Unit ever bothered to create them - Doesn't it!

    Still, I have to suspect that those same charts have brought more novice shooters along a lot faster, and saved many thousands of rounds of, what would have otherwise been, wasted ammunition. Those charts work; and they work well - Period! (It's just that, 'gun heroes' don't usually like them.)

    OK, that's good! You did better on this one; and, you're more than half right, too. It's wonderful to see you acknowledge that grip is important. The last guy I got into an internet argument with on this subject was completely unwilling to admit that much. (Because he, obviously, didn't know!)

    Let me offer you this: Trigger control does NOT represent 75% of all shooting errors; and, I've got more than 50 years of shooting experience that says so. Trigger control is the very last physical symptom in a long chain of incorrect proprioceptive reflexes that finally manifests itself with the trigger being, somehow, incorrectly pulled ('pressed') and the shot going wrong. It's, also, been my lifelong experience that if you really know how to hold a pistol, then, proper trigger control is easy!

    Here, I have to differ with you. Whether you consciously realize it or not, you do, 'play expert'. You had no real business jumping into a simple informational post like the one I wrote and making those, 'mysterious remarks'. Your reply remains as rude as it is provocative. That is a post which has, by the way, often been praised whenever I or someone else like me has chosen to present it in the past.

    (And, I have to think that deep down inside you actually agree because, after all, you did end your original comments with a, 'disclaimer'.)

    :eek: A 100% chance! Wow, what can I say? Here, I'm clearly in over my head. Sure, I've had to face a few bad hombres in my time; but, gee, I've never had to actually train any of them. What's next? Are we supposed to exchange internet war stories, or something?

    Don't you worry about me. I ain't nobody; but, someone you chose to insult on the internet; and, common sense, would indicate that's the way we should keep it. In the future, if you stay away from my posts in the same way I've been staying away from yours, well then, we'll get along fine.

    Yes, I knew that you would! It's just that I'm getting older; and, I'm really sick and tired of all this internet ego confrontation crap. Originally, I came onto this website because I hoped the manners might be better on a smaller firearms website; however, I'm quickly learning that people are people, and my time might be better spent attempting to teach others how to be more Christian rather than just better with a gun. ;)
     
  19. DCJS Instructor

    DCJS Instructor Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    G21.45,

    You ask me to answer:

     
  20. G21.45

    G21.45 New Member

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    :rolleyes: We're not going to settle this on the internet; so, I'm going to let it go.

    I will tell you this, though; and it's the God's honest truth! Two senior FBI agents who knew me well have said things to me like; 'I'm glad we don't have to go up against someone like you, everyday!' or, 'Thank you for what you did for my son.' 'You turned him into the best rifleman at Valley Forge.'

    (His highly trained veteran gunfighter father used to stand right behind us while I trained the boy. The father was tough as nails; and, if I'd made any kind of mistake, I'm positive I could have measured his dad's response time in milliseconds!)

    I've never been famous as anything other than perhaps a very good real estate broker. However, I'm now retired; and, I've reached that age in life where I'm past either embarrassing other people on the firing line, or needing to prove anything to anyone. (including myself)

    There's a whole lot of things I'm going to go to my grave not knowing; but, 'guns' and how to use them isn't among those subjects. Just a few final observations:

    Jeff Cooper never thought so; and, neither do I. This can be achieved with a rifle. (If you know how.) It's much harder to do with a handgun and fixed sights. Even an ammunition change can and often does move the POI on you; so will a really hot barrel - But, you should already know this, right?

    Interesting! With the single exception of Jim Cirillo, and the possible exception of Pat Goodale whom I do not know, everyone of the names you've mentioned has taken more than his fair share of criticism on the internet. I've often spoken with two of these men, but never publicly argued with any of them. Know what? I intend to keep things that way!

    Lee Paige is a certified NRA Firearms Instructor! Then, he must have slept through class and never cracked open ANY of the manuals. His first mistake was bringing live ammunition into that room. His second mistake was taking his weapon for granted; his third mistake was that ridiculous excuse for a clearance drill he conducted with the fully loaded magazine only partially removed from the weapon and, thereafter, reinserting that loaded magazine again before he closed the slide. His final mistake? Well, we all know what that was! (Rule #3)

    The videos that are around now have all been heavily edited. I saw the original. The reason Paige pulled the trigger on his, 'Glock Fo-Tee' was, in all likelihood, because he was about to let one of the kids in the front row handle the weapon. (As a matter of fact, by his now edited-out body and hand movement, I'm actually positive of this!)

    Of course he got fired. What was he doing carrying a government issued pistol in the first place; and, what does this shocking event really say about the pistol training the government is supposed to have given him?

    No, Sir! No, Sir, you cannot! Put a man with that sort of attitude and a gun, together, in the same room and you're asking for something really bad to happen. Any mistake with a gun is completely unforgiving. The right attitude - the only right attitude - is that the first mistake you make with a gun might very well be your last - Period!

    No other attitude is acceptable! (And, over the years, I've brushed many a muzzle off myself. What is more, if you've spent any amount of time on a firing line, you must have too.)

    Good! That's absolutely correct. The rest is strictly a matter of how quickly, or how well, you've trained yourself to control the muzzle. I'm going to leave this discussion, here, and will not revisit it. ;)
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2008