POSSESSION OF HIGH CAP MAGS NOT ILLEGAL IN CA!!! referrence included

Discussion in 'The Club House' started by TheDaggle, Feb 20, 2010.

  1. TheDaggle

    TheDaggle New Member

    978
    0
    0
    Fellow Kommifornians, this blew my damn mind. The high cap law has a few loopholes, as many of us know, but this is a huge one. I just learned that while possession for the purpose of sale, import, and manufacture of high capacity magazines is banned, simple POSSESSION is perfectly legal. Now, of course, the ban on sales applies to FFLs and private citizens, and the ban on import and manufacture of hi-cap mags prevents us from getting them out of state or making them, but if you FIND a high cap magazine, there is absolutely no law against keeping and using it. Of course the odds of this happening are.... well, absurd, but there you have it. The way I interpret this ( INTERPRET is key here, I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice!) if one were, for instance, to be the beneficiary of an estate that included hi-cap mags, they would then be perfectly legal. For what its worth!

    CA Penal code
    12020 thru 12040 Unlawful Carrying and Possession - Dangerous Weapons Control Laws - Dangerous Weapons Control Laws - Bureau of Firearms - California Dept. of Justice - Office of the Attorney General
     
  2. Jpyle

    Jpyle New Member

    4,828
    0
    0
    I'm no lawyer either and FTF disclaims any leagl advice given here but I believe that you are correct. Unlike NJ where there was no grandfathering for "existing" high cap mags CA permits the continued possession of any magazine that existed "in state" at the time of the ban.
     

  3. TheDaggle

    TheDaggle New Member

    978
    0
    0
    What really surprised me was not the "grandfathering" of pre ban mags, but the legality of any hi cap mag that enters the state by any number of legal means. *yes, I am thinking tricky loopholes*
     
  4. DarinCraft

    DarinCraft New Member

    1,159
    0
    0
    If you own them before the ban they are not illegal. You just can't buy them now unless you're LE or have a hi cap permit.

    As far as your reference to getting them through an inheritance or some other way is not correct. Possession is not illegal, but lending, giving or selling them is illegal as well as obtaining them after the ban. In otherwords, if you already own them your okay but you cannot obtain them any other way even if it's a family member who gave them to you. If you are *thinking* loopholes, it's probably not the best idea to post it on the internet. A 12020 arrest is a felony and in CA if you are convicted of a felony you lose your right to own firearms for the rest of your life. Is it really worth it so your gun can go bang a couple more times?

    just my .02
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2010
  5. Benning Boy

    Benning Boy New Member

    9,624
    1
    0
    Are the existing, grandfathered ones registered?:confused:

    In other words, if you possessed one befored the ban, is there a paper trail on it?
     
  6. mrm14

    mrm14 Active Member

    2,705
    3
    38
    As far as I know, and I researched this in the 1990's when the ban occured here, there was and is no registeration required for pre ban "grandfathered in" magazines.

    I believe this is due to the fact that I've, at least, never seen a serial number stamped on detachable magazines.
     
  7. bigbad-ratman

    bigbad-ratman New Member

    227
    0
    0
    but once they start investigating you and find you havent lived there that long or owned a waepon that long, well they obviously werent grandfathered so you are toast.
     
  8. lowracer

    lowracer New Member

    2
    0
    0
    It's one of the most messed up laws I've ever seen. Can't sell them or import or manufacture, but buying is legal and owning and use are legal, no matter how they were acquired.

    If you're the proprietor of an armored car company, you can buy and sell and import all the high cap mags you like. I've often wondered why someone hasn't started up an armored car company and dispatched a fleet of armored vehicles filled to the gills with large cap mags like ice cream trucks into CA. I'd do it but I'm busy running a business making CA-legal pistol grip replacements. Turns out if you have a rifle with none of the evil features on it, you can shoot high caps all day long and drop them with your finger.
     
  9. mrm14

    mrm14 Active Member

    2,705
    3
    38
    I believe this would be true. Luckly, when it comes to pre ban "grandfathered in" magazine laws, I have lived in and kept my prime residence in California all 54 years of my life. I'm more than fairly confident that anyone who moved here, post ban, would be in violation of the Cali. laws if they brought in post ban magazines.
     
  10. TheDaggle

    TheDaggle New Member

    978
    0
    0
    Let me clarify

    A lot of people seem to be missing my point. Of course, mags owned pre-ban are exempt, but my point is that possession of any kind is not prohibited. The law does not state that possession before the ban is exempt, it is exempt by way of omission, as are any other form of possession that did not originate from manufacture or import. Even if you did not own them before the ban, if you acquired them through means other than those expressly prohibited, you should be covered under the same principle of omission. If, for instance, you are an LEO and you retire or quit, you acquired them legally after the ban, and possession is not prohibited, so though you are no longer an LEO, there is no law against you keeping your hi-cap mags. Yes, violating the ban IS a serious felony, but the law DOES NOT prohibit possession or receipt of any kind! Only manufacture, import, and distribution. If you acquire them through a means not expressly prohibited, and you do not attempt to sell them or give them away, there shouldn't be any problem.
     
  11. Yunus

    Yunus New Member

    5,250
    0
    0
    I take it this is the line that is relevant to this discussion? Sounds like the only person breaking the law would be the person who gave or sold it, not the buyer or receiver as TheDaggle states. However I would be very careful about use of a hi-cap magazine in Cali. I think you could get on the wrong side of the law easily and the hi-cap magazine would draw attention.

    Here is an example.

    I go to the range with my friend. I pull out a gun with hi-cap magazine, I have owned this gun and magazine since before 2000. I am shooting and everything is fine. My friend says, hey can I try that out looks like a nice gun. I let him take a single shot with it.

    I have just broken the law by "lending" to a friend.

    Just be careful is all I'm saying, loopholes are great but is the risk of accidentally breaking the law worth the reward of a hi-cap magazine. Now if you only kept it in your SHTF box or something, then I can see that. If it were me, I probably wouldn't risk it, I prefer to have a larger buffer between what I do and breaking a law.

    /I'm no lawyer, I only play one on the internet. Taking legal advice from me is just plain stupid, talk to a real lawyer, or at least someone who plays one on TV. :)
     
  12. DarinCraft

    DarinCraft New Member

    1,159
    0
    0
    What I want to know is how can you obtain a high cap mag in CA legally or as theDaggle states "other than expressly prohibited."

    I don't care, I'm retired LE and have a high cap permit. But if someone else wants not only to risk getting arrested but to lose their right to posses a gun for the rest of their life, hey man enjoy the ride.:rolleyes:

    As far as grandfathered mags. If you get caught with a hi cap, their is no way to tell how long you have had the mag, but he will find out how long you've had the gun. If he finds that you bought the gun in lets say 2004, guess what...you're done and he won't give a crap about how you obtained them.

    EDIT: What I mean is, the officer and the DA will only be able to assume since you cannot prove when or how you got it (because you probably won't rat out the person who gave it to you) then you HAD to have imported it. NOW you're in the sh!t. But you are right, posses them all you want, but if you get asked how you got them and you can't prove their preban, then they will assume you bought them out of state and imported them. Know what I mean Vern?
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2010
  13. DarinCraft

    DarinCraft New Member

    1,159
    0
    0
    Do yourself a favor before you get too excited and call DOJ firearms division at (916) 263-4887. Yes you can posses them, if you can legally posses a hi cap mag. How do you do that? Get a high cap permit, a badge or have owned one before 2000. I am not saying you can't get them, but getting them is pretty difficult with out "importing" it into CA. Only way to get one is to import it (then you are in trouble), buy it (then the dealer is in trouble) or get one given to you (then they're in trouble). You probably won't get into that much trouble, but how are you going to find someone who is willing to risk their freedom so you can own one?


    EDIT: One more thing. It probably won't go here unless you really screw up, but it can. Do you know when you import by crossing state lines for the purpose of committing a crime like buying magazines in Nevada and bringing them into California, that someone else gets involved? Do you know who? I'll give you a hint they work for the federal government and are responsible for interstate commerce.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2010
  14. M14sRock

    M14sRock New Member

    5,549
    0
    0
    Are we really still discussing this? The mags are legal to own, possess and use.

    And if you bought the mags before buying the firearm they go to, they are still fine. I own plenty of mags for guns that I have never owned. Why? Because someday I will probably end up with another of those guns.

    I bought my first M14 mag (an HR-R) when I was 10 years old. Bought it at The Post Exchange in Northridge, CA. for $.50 (fifty cents). Bought my first M14 when I was 19. I still have the mag, but that M14 is long gone.

    Read the law carefully, it will explain the magazine aspect clearly if you break it down into bite sized pieces.
     
  15. Jo da Plumbr

    Jo da Plumbr New Member

    4,492
    0
    0
    Question

    As I understand it there is no registration on rifles. How will any LEO know what I owned and when.
     
  16. DarinCraft

    DarinCraft New Member

    1,159
    0
    0
    You are correct. I was referring to HG's.

    M14, we are not talking about possession. It looks like he is inferring that you can get the magazines somewhere else where it is legal and bring them here. THAT IS NOT POSSESSION, that is importation. He is also saying if he were to get them in an estate sale of some kind he would be okay. That is not legal either, the person who possess them might not bare the brunt of that one, but the seller/giver would.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2010
  17. M14sRock

    M14sRock New Member

    5,549
    0
    0
    Dig it. You are correct about the part of his post regarding inheriting. There is no provision that I have seen in the law for that. The law does not allow for "Transfer of ownership" of the mags.
     
  18. TheDaggle

    TheDaggle New Member

    978
    0
    0
    With that specific scenario in mind, the law states further down that there is an exemption for legal owners of high cap mags loaning them to a non-firearm-prohibited individual as long as the legal owner is in a proximity to the user as such that he could access them in time to claim them in the event they were called in to question, but thank you for being the first to understand what I was actually saying.
     
  19. DarinCraft

    DarinCraft New Member

    1,159
    0
    0
    What is there to understand. You are promoting "obtaining" hi cap mags that you did not own prior to the ban and are clearly stating you have found a "loophole." What about that is being misunderstood? You never once mentioned using a friends hi caps. You stated if you could get them somehow then you were ok to posses them, which is not true unless you legal obtain them through the three ways I listed earlier.
     
  20. TheDaggle

    TheDaggle New Member

    978
    0
    0
    I specifically said I was NOT talking about importation, only possession. I am well aware that importation is prohibited, but POSSESSION is NOT listed in the prohibited conditions. If you were on a dump run, and saw a 30rd mag on a pile of trash, you could pick it up and keep it, and I can't see any way you would be violating any law. You didn't import or manufacture or furnish it. Furthermore, in an estate SALE, the seller would be liable, obviously. If it were part of an estate BEQUEATHED to you, you have not imported, manufactured, or furnished it, and the furnisher is the estate of a person who by definition is beyond the laws of this land....