Police Training Gunshot Fatalities Report

Discussion in 'Training & Safety' started by DoubleAction, Feb 23, 2008.

  1. DoubleAction

    DoubleAction New Member

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    Many, if not all, of these deaths occurred from the improper handling of firearms.
    I couldn't help but notice it started out with one in 1913, with the next one occurring in 1939. The one after 1939, occurred in 1971 and went crazy after that. I also noticed how we went over 30 years, from 1939 to 1971 without a reported Gunshot Fatality.
    Many might say this is because Officers switched from Revolvers to Semi-Autos. Not entirely so; In my area, a Deputy with the Clayton County Sheriff's Office killed another during a training exercise by loading live ammunition in his revolver instead of blanks in 1985. This same Deputy went on to become the Sheriff Department's Chief Deputy of the county. You will also find incidents of other fatalities from the use of revolvers in this report.
    These are the fatalities; I have not looked up the injury or casualty rate.

    I only bring this up to bring attention to my own area where the Sheriff does not believe in the right of licensed firearm holders to carry firearms, without the proper training. If being trained by law enforcement is considered "Proper Training", I'll take my chances with the training I received in the military and thereafter.


    This is in PDF :Click on "Training Fatalities Gunshot" on the left side of opening page.

    http://www.ntoa.org/pdfs/2007TrainingDeathsReport.pdf
     
  2. scoutman

    scoutman New Member

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    Some of the finest users of firearms I have ever known have been members of the LE community. Some of the worst I've known were LE too. This video has been around for a while, but I still thinks it's worth watching

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_91jcFTbLE8[/ame]
     

  3. hillbilly68

    hillbilly68 New Member

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    That DEA clip is an oldie but a goodie. "Only one professional enough to handle this weapon" BANG. :D :D :D CLassic. What a moron. And I heard that he filed a grievance and a claim against the agency because his fellow officers were circulating this video of him and it caused him undue stress. What an idiot.

    Back to the original point, concur that LE is just like any other job in that there are professionals who are experts at their craft, and there are ones that have a job just because there is a need for a warm body to fill a slot. There are plenty of Soldiers who can't shoot for ****, plenty of LEOs who can't either. Have seen/ read accounts of multiple magazines being dumped and no hits. Not to "Monday morning quarterback" by any means, a guy in a fight has his hands full, he is the "man in the ring"(TR). But when you look at it from an after action standpoint, there is a gap in the training or the standards are not high enough/ not enforced. Not sure if that is the case for LE community.
    My 2c.
    regards
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2008
  4. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    Training Fatalities

    I have been a cop for 24 years. In that short time I have seen a massive shift in the people becoming officers. When I was a rookie, people got into LE partially because they were "gun people". They were hunters, shooters, reloaders and all around outdoorsmen. I spent 8 years as a training instructor and saw about 50% of the basic recruits that had never even handled a handgun. Teaching basic gun safety was a big chunk of the curriculum. Not enough common sense to understand which end the bullet comes out of. Fear, trepidation and the inability to hit the target, much less clear a malfunction with out repeated instruction.
    Common sense is the missing link, IMHO. It seems to be in short supply in our society. People cannot "figure it out". They have to have a step by step detailed manual with cool pictures and power point presentation and then they still cannot remember to tap and rack.
    Guns pointed everywhere but at the target. Range officers forced to qualify 25 people at once with no additional eyes on the shooters. Budget cuts that keep staff at a minimum and trigger time to the bare (State required) minimums each year.
    Body armor is now mandatory for shooters and RO's. I have personally been hit 13 times by ricochets. 12 stopped by the armor. One at an IPSC match that just broke the skin.
     
  5. Duck

    Duck New Member

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    Sounds to me like you need to find a new place to stand. :D
     
  6. SimonTuffGuy

    SimonTuffGuy New Member

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    Or find better shooters. ;)

    I've thought about trying to become a(n) LEO... But I'm not sure I'd make it.
     
  7. Rentacop

    Rentacop New Member

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    Robo :
    Hit by ricochets on the range ? How did that happen ? Please elaborate.

    Here's a link to an article about a cop who accidentally left one in the chamber of his Glock----when he unloaded it in his patrol car----and had it presumably pointed at himself----and accidentally pulled the trigger. He was killed.

    The article makes it sound like an understandable lapse.

    Funeral for Atlantic City police officer set for Wednesday; link to Kevin Wilkins' obituary - pressofAtlanticCity.com : Today's Top Headlines
     
  8. Bigguns911

    Bigguns911 New Member

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    This brings up an situation in a local Sheriff's Office next to mine. A reserve recruit was on the fire line doing some training with other recruits. As he drew his 1911 he lost control of it and it started to fall to the ground. He attempted to stop it from hitting the ground. As he did this it went bang and hit in the gut, travestied his gut and logged in his right buttock.:eek: Fortunately it missed all vital areas and he lived. And thank god it did not his a fellow recruit. It took only a few milliseconds for this to go down. The instructor could not stop it. This is how stuff happens.

    I know LEO's that I work with that are not gun people. They do not like guns, they do not train as they should and they are frankly afraid of guns. I know at lest on that Carry's his gun to and from work with just the mag in and no round in the chamber. I know others that only clean their guns when they are mandated to do so. What do you do with these people, you can't fire them and they will not change even if you kick their asses?
     
  9. Rentacop

    Rentacop New Member

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    Bigguns911 :
    In security, we have many guards who won't even buy a gun or practice shooting, unless they are afraid they will flunk the annual re-qualification shoot.

    My best guess is that you must find a motivating factor that will cause the police officers to want to be experts. These are possibilities :
    1) A Force on Force exercise to show them how ill-prepared they are and how terrifying it could be to face a gunman 60 feet away and be unable to hit him.

    2) Form a pistol club in house and post a plaque each month honoring the winners.

    3) Start each training class with a speech on how enjoyable the shooting sports can be and urge the recruits to get fun out of shooting.

    4) Tell any cop that doesn't practice that he is endangering his fellow officers, who depend on him for team work, back-up etc. ( Some cops care more about their fellow cops than they do about the private citizens they're paid to protect ).

    Washington D.C. once had a cop who carried an empty .38 because he did not want to shoot anyone. He eventually left the police and joined the Amish.

    There was a Lieutenant on a security force who, at the end of his shift, handed his .38, in its holster, to a guard coming on duty. The guard receiving the .38 and holster, simply strapped them on and worked the graveyard shift. He spent an uneventful night checking buildings and foot patrolling. At the end of his shift, he turned in the gun and holster, only to find the .38 empty. The next day he asked the Lieutenant if he knew the gun he had given him was empty.
    The Lieutenant replied matter-of-factly, " I never carry any bullets in my gun. "

    Oh, the stories I could tell you !

    5) Offer to help the skittish ones by spending an hour at thr range tutoring them.

    BTW : There were details on that DEA AD vid linked above posted on Thesmokinggun.com.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2010
  10. Tackleberry1

    Tackleberry1 New Member

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    Solution

    I've never been an LEO but did serve 6 yrs army light infantry and never witnessed an AD with live ammo. My first Drill Instructor informed us that there was no such thing as an "accidental discharge". There were only two ways to fire a weapon, either intentionally or NEGLIGENTLY! I believe that simple shift in word usage from Accidental to Negligent really helped to get the attention of many new recruits. What also helped was the constant training, using blanks w/MILES gear, force on force stuff, that allowed all of us to hone our skills under the worst conditions, IE bad weather, no sleep, miserable conditions which seem to be the norm for any grunt. It's not realistic to think cops have the time to train this way but the very simple solution would be for departments to allow 4 yrs "Infantry or MP" service to substitute for the 4 yr degree requirement. I'm sure many offices like yourself would rather get partnered with a vet like me instead of some guy with a degree who does not know the firs think about muzzle control.

    Tackleberry1 Out
     
  11. Bigguns911

    Bigguns911 New Member

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    Thanks for the tips Rentacop. We have a mandatory shot coming up next month. I will think it over and see what I can come up with. Bigguns.:D
     
  12. Dzscubie

    Dzscubie New Member

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    Bigguns did you just hear this or read this? 1911's have a grip safety that prevents the weapon from firing unless it is depressed. Did the officer grab the weapon and shoot himself as I don't see how it fired by just dropping it. If this was a media report they are notorious for being inaccurate.

    I agree on the new "breed" of officer. Being a cop used to be a calling and wearing a badge was a way of life not a job and that seems to have fallen by the side. I blame this on the "touchy feely" mentality of the baby boomer generation and the "make love not war" crap of the 60-70's. Bad people do bad things to good people and only those willing to step in and inflect trauma and pain on those BG's will protect the public and stop this pattern not giving them more love and understanding. Unfortunately I'm a dinosaur.
     
  13. Tackleberry1

    Tackleberry1 New Member

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    Discharge from a droped 1911?

    Gotta side with Dzscubie on this one. Been toting 1911 for 20 years now and never seen or heard of a discharge from being droped? Far more likely this "new breed" recruite fumbled his weapon and shot himself but of course when dealing with the "new breed" we must remember that nothing is ever there fault! The gun just went off, I swear! BS! I'd like to see LEO trainers follow the Infantry's lead and drop the term "Accidental Discharge" from the vocabulary. There are only two ways to dischage a gun, Intentionaly or Negligently. Start substituting "Accidental with Negligent" and I guarantee these incidents will decline.;)
     
  14. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    I have assisted in the investigation of two such "dropped weapon" ND's. One was a S&W 66 that fell out of the holster and went off. The officer apparently hooked the butt with his own elbow and forced it forward and out (holster technology has come a long way in 25 years since). No marks on hammer spur. Conclusion? He must have pulled the trigger when grabbing for it as it fell. The second was a Beretta 92 that the officer hung by the trigger guard from the coat hook in the john while leaving a duece. The pistol pulled the screws out of the door and the pistol fell. Once againthe officer attempted to catch it and must have pulled the trigger while catching it. Fortunately, no one was physically injured in either event. Their pride was severly damaged however.

    As for getting struck by ricochets, I am larger than most people so the probability is higher for me to catch a bullet. In nearly every case I was standing directly behind the shooter and caught a bullet or a fragment of a bullet that bounced back. In every case the distance to the target was immediately altered to prevent future occurances.

    Body armor is mandatory for all personnel on our ranges in addition to eye and ear protection. Shooters, Safety Officers, Range Master, everyone. Stuff happens
     
  15. Dzscubie

    Dzscubie New Member

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    Same here Robo, we require our officers to qualify with their body armor even if they don't wear it on duty (voluntary wear policy). All of our Instructors are issued a red Tactical vest for their body armor with Firearms Instructor markings to identify them on the line and protect them from officers in condition “brown” (head up their A**). We use metal reactive targets during our tactical exercises and splash back is common.
     

    Attached Files:

  16. orangello

    orangello New Member

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    DZscubie, is that vest OK'd for deer hunting too? :D

    As a non-LEO, that sounds like an interesting idea to increase officer safety. It also sounds like there could be some confusion regarding the differences in how an MP is legally allowed to treat a soldier versus how a LEO is legally allowed to handle a regular civilian citizen. Do MP's receive the level of training in civilian law & such that most LEO's for civilian populations do? Example, aren't there a few differences in the 4th amendment protections afforded a deployed soldier versus those afforded a citizen walking their dog & is this explained/enforced in the MP training?

    I'm not a soldier & would prefer LEO's trained specifically to work with civilians. No offense Tackleberry, just my opinion. It certainly would be nice if we could discourage LEO applicants with gun safety issues.
     
  17. Dzscubie

    Dzscubie New Member

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    Orangello,

    Only if the deer shoot back :eek: :D:D
     
  18. blkdragon1212

    blkdragon1212 New Member

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    Before I begin, let me say hello to everyone. I am new to this forum, and very happy to be here. Let me give a little background about myself. I am well into my twenty eighth year on a large Metro Police Department in Texas.

    I am currently in Investigations with certifications in Defensive Tactics, Firearms Instructor and tactics, Crime Prevention Specialist to name a few. So here goes, Police Departments have budgets that have been cut to quick. It seems that many cities believe that having a sports team, or museum is more important than public safety.

    It seems funny that most of the rules and regulations are designed to prevent civil litagation. It would seem to me that they would spend more on training, thus reduce civil liability, but what do I know.

    Firearms accidents have no excuse! Contrary to popular belief, car accidents kill more cops than shootings, or any other hazards. Shootings are next, the ones where the bad guys shoot the cops, and self inflicted deaths are down the list. Whenever you get careless, they will bite you every time.

    It has been stated before, there are cops that are awful, and some that are better. Which can be said of many of us. Safety is safety, and is not the property of any one profession.

    Regarding the comment that you would rather get your training from somebody other than the cops, it is your right to get training from whomever you wish. It just sounds like you have a beef with your local law enforcement. While your displeasure with your Sheriff may be valid, anecdotal statements really have no place in discussions that others might read to obtain information.

    The words expressed here are important enough that we don't let our own bias to get in the way of dialog. Just my opinion, and my opinion and a buck fifty will get you a cup of coffee at MacDonald's.

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 10, 2010
  19. Tackleberry1

    Tackleberry1 New Member

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    My point exactly

    Wow, priceless:) Love the one about the Beretta and the coat hook! I'm not LE, just a simple former Infantry Sergeant but been carrying for 12 years so I relate to that vexing problem of storing your side arm while dropping a duce in a public RR, usally at work were letting your belt, holster, and gun rest on floor in view of your co-workers is not good.
    My solution was to ditch my collection of expensive leather holsters and go to using the velcro belly band strapped around my hips. Works great, certainly beter that the coat hook:eek:
     
  20. orangello

    orangello New Member

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    Really? I don't consider the postings on internet forums to have the validity of reviewed professional research projects limited to statistically validated research only; i try to consider what is posted on internet forums as a bit less objective by its very nature. I have always considered the bias inherent in the posting of personal & semi-anonymous opinions and points of view to be another valuable/interesting part of that information or statement posted. If a LEO or a person in an industry that primarily serves LEO's posts something, i view that with the poster's career in mind, just as i would if a anti-gun activist posted something or if a medical doctor posted something.

    I think the $1.50 size coffee at MickeyD's is now referred to commonly as a "shot". :D
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2010