Point Shooting: Yes? No?
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What's this? According to Mr. Search, I've opened up virgin terrain here. (Actually, I recall heated discussion on this topic last Fall, but the bloodhound ain't findin' it.)
We need a reprise. The weather is miserable, everybody's cranky..... Let's hear about point shooting.
We need a reprise. The weather is miserable, everybody's cranky..... Let's hear about point shooting.
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Point shooting? Well, was trying for a 9, but got snakeyes instead....
Yeah, have practiced for close quarters in-a-hurry work- two handed stance, look at the target, pull trigger. Works. Not neat, but works (if botha yer arms are about the same length!)
Yeah, have practiced for close quarters in-a-hurry work- two handed stance, look at the target, pull trigger. Works. Not neat, but works (if botha yer arms are about the same length!)
You don't remember this thread.... LOL
I have some thoughts on this whole "Point Shooting" and who does it better than anyone, but you guys will have to wait until I gets me some food in my stomach.
JD
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Thanks JD. That was it, but I have to say that nothing in that thread dealt with point shooting, just a bad grip option and some ensuing outrage over the blasphemous suggestion that the 1911 isn't God's preferred sidearm.
It is. I acknowledge that, and have a voodoo doll in the image of my brother, as he got our Dad's Colt, and I wound up with his beautiful yet useless Wilmot Damascus-barreled side-by-side wallhanger. Engraving like you dream about, and worth maybe $200. Can't even shoot it.
Tim also got his rifles and pretty much every other functioning firearm. If he wasn't my brother, I'd call him a bastard.
I'm shooting with a normal grip, but instead of aiming the pistol, I'm using good ol' proprioception to line up the web of my thumb with the crook of my index finger, and I'm effectively taking the gun out of the aiming equation. All it does is make a noise and soon thereafter, a hole where I expected to see one, give or take 5". That seems like a lot, but that hole is showing up at least a second earlier than if I was using the sights, so in the real world I'd have round 3 or 4 out of the tube, on target, before the first aimed one would hit.
It is most decidedly not "Spray & Pray", and if a noob like me can do it after a little dry-fire in the house, there has to be something to it. None of my golf clubs have sights, after all.
Wait...that probably wasn't the best analogy.
It is. I acknowledge that, and have a voodoo doll in the image of my brother, as he got our Dad's Colt, and I wound up with his beautiful yet useless Wilmot Damascus-barreled side-by-side wallhanger. Engraving like you dream about, and worth maybe $200. Can't even shoot it.
Tim also got his rifles and pretty much every other functioning firearm. If he wasn't my brother, I'd call him a bastard.
I'm shooting with a normal grip, but instead of aiming the pistol, I'm using good ol' proprioception to line up the web of my thumb with the crook of my index finger, and I'm effectively taking the gun out of the aiming equation. All it does is make a noise and soon thereafter, a hole where I expected to see one, give or take 5". That seems like a lot, but that hole is showing up at least a second earlier than if I was using the sights, so in the real world I'd have round 3 or 4 out of the tube, on target, before the first aimed one would hit.
It is most decidedly not "Spray & Pray", and if a noob like me can do it after a little dry-fire in the house, there has to be something to it. None of my golf clubs have sights, after all.
Wait...that probably wasn't the best analogy.
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The 1911 has a design flaw? Is that why it has been used by police and military for over a century, still used today; and been proven in at least 5 major conflicts? Is that why the M9 is going the way of the dodo only after roughly 20 years of service. I think that someone is not looking at the whole story.
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I don't make it a habit agreeing with gorknoids, $hit I rarely understand what he's saying, but this time he has a point (no pun intended) in that we should use this style of shooting in our practice sessions.
Hold your water, before you go off on another middle finger rant. What I'm talking about is quicker rounds on target using the same grip. Actually the only change to the draw and fire response is the timing of the first trigger pull.
Let's face it, if you ever have a PD experience, 90% of the time it will run similar to this;
It will be a surprise.
In your rush to draw, you will more than likely be defending off a punch or knife attack with your weak-side arm.
Your first shot will be a short distance from the holster. This is dictated by the threat you are facing and the gut pump of adrenaline your brain just released.
At this close range, hopefully you will have blown the BG's heart out with the first shot. You will take the second. It all happens too quickly. (Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.)
Do you practice this shot?
Let's say the 90% is way off, drop it in half to 45%, $hit take another 20% off bringing it down to 25%.
At this level you would experience this shot one out of four times.
Do you practice this shot?
Point shooting, this is what I call this style and it doesn’t refer to using alternate trigger fingers or any change in grip. It's not sight shooting; the extra time required to sight in this scenario will get you killed!
Do you practice this shot?........You should!
Hold your water, before you go off on another middle finger rant. What I'm talking about is quicker rounds on target using the same grip. Actually the only change to the draw and fire response is the timing of the first trigger pull.
Let's face it, if you ever have a PD experience, 90% of the time it will run similar to this;
It will be a surprise.
In your rush to draw, you will more than likely be defending off a punch or knife attack with your weak-side arm.
Your first shot will be a short distance from the holster. This is dictated by the threat you are facing and the gut pump of adrenaline your brain just released.
At this close range, hopefully you will have blown the BG's heart out with the first shot. You will take the second. It all happens too quickly. (Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.)
Do you practice this shot?
Let's say the 90% is way off, drop it in half to 45%, $hit take another 20% off bringing it down to 25%.
At this level you would experience this shot one out of four times.
Do you practice this shot?
Point shooting, this is what I call this style and it doesn’t refer to using alternate trigger fingers or any change in grip. It's not sight shooting; the extra time required to sight in this scenario will get you killed!
Do you practice this shot?........You should!
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I agree Cane, I always thought that point shooting was merely pointing at the target with your weapon and firing at it without using your sights. I had been told that your arm would naturally point at the target for you without extending your finger. It sounds like a good way to lose some control with your weapon and/or get a slide bite.
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If the "zombie" is almost upon you, point shooting can be very effective.
If you have enough distance to properly get, at least a rough sight picture, then do so.
If you have enough distance to properly get, at least a rough sight picture, then do so.
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Lieutenant Colonel Jeff Cooper (1920-2006)
From Cooper’s book, Fighting Handguns published in 1958.
Let’s hear about point shooting in Cooper's own words....
....."It's an axiom that hitting your target is your main concern, and the best way to hit is to use your sights, but circumstances do arise in which the need for speed is so great, and the range so short, that you must hit by pointing alone, without seeing your gun at all.
...Pointer fire is not as hard to learn as sighting, once you realize it's range limitations. using the 1911 auto-pistol I have found that I can teach the average infantryman to stay on a silhouette at 10 yards--using pointer fire in two-shot bursts--more easily that I can get him into that 25 yard bullseye using slow fire and sights.
Of course this sort of shooting is strictly a way of obtaining body hits at essentially indoor ranges (30 feet and under)…
...But up close pointer fire can be murderously effective, and its mastery is often the difference between life and death." (pg 97-98)
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Great excerpt, Rattler. That said, after reading the post where you said you agreed with me on something, I washed and I washed, but I still feel dirty.....
For anyone who hasn't tried it, take a known-empty handgun and try it. Draw and quickly point the weapon at a spot in the room, and then check the sight alignment. It's probably going to be aimed dead-on. One thing I found yesterday while shooting from behind a panel was that a good bit of the time, the shots weren't only good to lethal, but follow-up shots were hitting tight on the first. It friggin' works.
For anyone who hasn't tried it, take a known-empty handgun and try it. Draw and quickly point the weapon at a spot in the room, and then check the sight alignment. It's probably going to be aimed dead-on. One thing I found yesterday while shooting from behind a panel was that a good bit of the time, the shots weren't only good to lethal, but follow-up shots were hitting tight on the first. It friggin' works.
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That is funny... ready, aim, fire....no just fire! someone is on a crutch or taking cover behind a deskChrist on a Crutch, here we go again....
*hunkers down behind desk*
JD
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I would NEVER take a shot at Jesus. Unless that was the name of the perp, of course.
You should try it. Standing up in your lane and making confetti is one thing, but winning is another. I don't worry about B-3 targets invading my home and permitting me 30 seconds before I shoot. I worry about the crackhead who decides he wants a sandwich kicking in my garage door and bumbling into my living room with a Glock.
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Say what you will but if you don't take the time to aquire the target you are truly spraying and praying. In a urban setting or even in a rual home a none targeted round has the chance to take an inocent life. The mili seconds it takes for someone that practices to aquire a target is a fact. The action hero persona that shoots from the hip is also is a fact. The results are so simple, it is I aimed and fired or I sprayed and prayed. I didn't make up the term "spray and pray" it's a common term and more comon because we can carry more rounds in in most states. On so many threads it has been expressed you have to be able to hit what you aim at. Every missed round has the potenial to injure or kill an inconent person. So ever pull of a trigger requires the gun owner to be responsible for the round. That is how I see it as regular guy, a guy that was a LEO for three years and a guy that was in the USMC for eight years.
I don't know of a instructor that doesn't educate the guy or gal to aquire the target before pulling the trigger.
I don't know of a instructor that doesn't educate the guy or gal to aquire the target before pulling the trigger.
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I expect that crack head "kicking in my garage door and bumbling" in your house doesn't know your house as well as you do and you should have time to aquire a traget before pulling the trigger.
I've shot a lot more than B-3 targets to come to my conclusion. I have to admit I do like to stand in my lane and make confetti, it relaxes me.
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