Point Shooting vs. Flash Sighting

Discussion in 'Training & Safety' started by BigByrd47119, Nov 15, 2010.

  1. BigByrd47119

    BigByrd47119 New Member

    3,426
    0
    0
    What are your opinions? I know there are some very knowledgeable folks on here and I just wanted to see what everyones personal preference is. Has either played a significant role in your training or real world situations?

    In general I'm still pretty new to handguns and I am attempting to weigh which of these methods would be best to train on. I'm sure some will probably suggest both seeing as at 10 ft, no ones using sights regardless.

    Thanks fellas.
     
  2. JonM

    JonM Moderator

    20,110
    19
    38
    it is wise to train using the sights. the more familiar you are with the correct usage of the sights a steady even trigger pull and where the bullets go when it is done correctly the easier and more natural "instinctive" shooting becomes. it is not really a either or but a cart before the horse thing. you can struggle and grunt pulling the cart with the horse tied to the rear or let the horse pull it for you.

    if you dont have the ability to pull the trigger smoothly and aim with the sights how are you going to develop accuracy and speed by just yanking the trigger blindly.

    thats my way of looking at it. i hope it helps.
     

  3. GoBlue

    GoBlue New Member

    58
    0
    0
    Each to his own and all that, but I remember reading that Fairbairn & Sykes said that using the sights in an actual close-up gun fight is pretty much not going to happen once the fight-or-flight instinct kicks in.

    http://tinyurl.com/ShootToLive
     
  4. bladenbullet

    bladenbullet New Member

    6
    0
    0
    until youve trained without sights you cant have an appreciation for the accuracy and speed you are capable of with point shooting skills...a competent point shooter can have several shots in center mass before a sight shooter raises their gun to near eye level...

    in training classes i have seen students go from basic skills to tearing ragged holes in targets with multiple rapid fired shots in very little time shooting without sights...and show accuracy out to 60' that is comparable to the accuracy they are capable of with sights...

    it can be difficult to undertsand unless youve trained in the proper use...the fairbain and sykes methods are accurate and fast...

    you are not pulling the trigger blindly...you learn better trigger control without thinking about it than you do when concentrating on sights...how youre breathing and the exact position of your finger on the trigger are secondary as opposed to primary and become instinctive as the shooting does...

    i shoot idpa matches point shooting and am very competitive in a sport where accuracy is prime...my first shots on target are faster than sighted shooters and half hip up close stages result in times that get astounded looks and comments from others...

    if you are training for self defense you need combat accuracy and speed...not good looking time consuming form and breathing exersizes...the first person with metal on meat usually wins the fight...the nobody asks what the loser looked like while they were taking incoming rounds...
     
  5. hogrider

    hogrider New Member

    249
    0
    0
    I was surprise how accurate I was when I first tried point shooting. It just seem so natural. I train with it all the time now.
     
  6. bladenbullet

    bladenbullet New Member

    6
    0
    0
    well stated....

    whats more valuable when absolutely necessary?...the ability to instinctively place lead on target not utilizing sights?...which is the most likely scenario in a self defense situation as they most times happen in close quarters...or...to be able to place a nice group of holes in a target at 30 yards with no pressure and controlled breathing and trigger excercises?....
     
  7. sarge_257

    sarge_257 New Member

    451
    0
    0
    Point shooting, flash shooting

    Whe Army and the Police both teach and train point shooting. Using the sights and aiming while your finger presses the trigger. As was said, you should first learn to hit. And only point (aiming with the sights) will teach that. I have shot both ways because some matches are so fast that flash shooting is the only way to stay in the winning. But when I shoot that way you better believe I am not shooting a standard pistol. I will be shooting a comp'd and light trigger 45 auto with weights on the front. Then all I have to do is look at the target and the gun will follow my eyes. I do have the sights in my vision just below my eye level.
    But starting out shooting that type of aiming or lack of aiming will just break your bank account buying ammo to use ventilating the back stop. In most gun fights the first aimed shot is the winner.
    Sarge
     
  8. Standby

    Standby New Member

    11
    0
    0
    Point shooting, flash sight picture and sighted ALL have a place, trick is to know and reflexively use the relevant technique on demand, if your thinking about it your too slow. ….As bladenbullet pointed out, it all about training!
     
  9. BigByrd47119

    BigByrd47119 New Member

    3,426
    0
    0
    Thanks for everyones responses. I guess I should have known this all already, relatively speaking. However with so many great minds on this forum it never hurts to ask. As was stated by an earlier poster, when SHTF your gonna probably want to just point and click. With that said, it essentially comes down to a situational thing.

    Once again, thanks to everyone!


    ~~~BigByrd
     
  10. canebrake

    canebrake New Member

    21,833
    3
    0
    "It's an axiom that hitting your target is your main concern, and the best way to hit is to use your sights, but circumstances do arise in which the need for speed is so great, and the range so short, that you must hit by pointing alone, without seeing your gun at all.
    Pointer fire is not as hard to learn as sighting, once you realize it's range limitations. using the 1911 auto-pistol I have found that I can teach the average infantryman to stay on a silhouette at 10 yards, using pointer fire in two-shot bursts, more easily that I can get him into that 25 yard bullseye using slow fire and sights.

    Of course this sort of shooting is strictly a way of obtaining body hits at essentially indoor ranges (30 feet and under). But up close pointer fire can be murderously effective, and its mastery is often the difference between life and death."
    - Lieutenant Colonel Jeff Cooper (1920-2006)
     
  11. JTJ

    JTJ Well-Known Member Supporter

    9,744
    508
    113
    Way back in 1961 I got friendly with the supply sargeant on the small radar site I was stationed at. He was also an armourer and instructor. We went out on the desert with 1911's frequently and burned a lot of ammo. He taught me a lot. His point was that if and when you had to use a pistol, it was more than likely going to be up front and personal. Anybody familiar with the 1911 can hit at 10- 25 yds. Up close is another story. He taught me never to buy a handgun that does not come up and point naturally. The 1911 does. It has to be an extension of your arm. You wont have time to adjust. Never bring your weapon up where some one can reach it. In tight quarters you start at the hip preferably with a 2 hand hold and move back if you can. You are shooting at a reasonably large target and dont need pinpoint accuracy but you do need to hit the center mass. It is amazing how accurate you can be shooting from the hip with the proper hold. He taught me to lock the pistol in position and move the body not the pistol. You bring the pistol up as you gain distance. He also said "Practice". This was not in his program back then but a laser really helps in developing the necessary mussle memory.
     
  12. Infidel

    Infidel New Member

    24
    0
    0
    No dogmatic "style" is going to get you the hits you NEED without training followed by practice. Training and practice are not the same thing. Training is the aquisition of new skills, practice is the repeating those new learned skills to hone them further.

    There are SO many guys so steeped into their dogmatic thinking...they remain rigid and unable to adapt as the dynamic critical incident unfolds. When I was in the academy WAYYYYYYYYY back in 1987 our range officer was so "old school" he believed that the old BULLSEYE style was the way to go. He did a dis-service to every wet nose he "trained".

    I am a believer in adapting to whatever situation you find yourself in. If you have the time to get a fine sight picture and break that shot perfectly from a rested position, by all means, don't deprive yourself of any advantage.

    If you are up close and personal, by all means, rock your peice out of the holster and hammer a couple of doubles into the bread basket as you try to move back and extend. ANY time you practice drills of this nature, please have a friend with you as a safety coach to see that you are not covering yourself with the muzzle...a second wet of eyes always helps!

    I have been shooting conmpetition for over 20 years. I started in PPC and IPSC, then moved to IDPA, then to Steel, and now am having the most fun shooting USPSA Steel at two local matches every week. Speed and accuracy go hand in hand...flash sight picture (extend, touch, press...break that shot as soon as you have front sight on the target to get the hits you NEED). These shots are from 5-15 yards.

    If I go over 15 yards...it is all about that wonderfully groovy sight picture and perfect break to the shot.

    Note in all cases...break the hot. By that I mean, press that trigger, watch your reset, don't slap or bounce it....dry fire dry fire dry fire.

    What I am saying is...train, practice, excel.
     
  13. BIGBEN

    BIGBEN New Member

    53
    0
    0
    I carry a 1911 on each side,so depending on the circumstances i may use both if faced with several attackers.Of course i use the sights when shooting longer distances,but at typical self defense situations,it doesnt take so long for an experienced person to point and shoot.Not saying im very experienced...
     
  14. CHLChris

    CHLChris New Member

    2,523
    0
    0
    Is this what you meant, Cane (I can't recall who quotes you in their signature line): "Be good at 2 to 4 yards in a PD situation, or be dead."?

    I can't recall the exact quote.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2010
  15. 7point62

    7point62 Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

    2,188
    0
    0
    When you have to shoot fast at a close target "drive" the barrel of your firearm at the target as you shoot. It's not sighting and it's more than point shooting, it's more akin to drilling.
     
  16. BigByrd47119

    BigByrd47119 New Member

    3,426
    0
    0
    Very interesting way of looking at it. It seems to make sense. Does anyone else have thoughts on this technique?
     
  17. jrfctx

    jrfctx New Member

    13
    0
    0
    From what I understand, flash sight picture or "type two focus" is a form of point shooting. I think all sighting methods have place somewhere in the fight continuum. Depends on the situation and the time/distances involved. Don't limit your training to one method or another.