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Discussion in 'General Handgun Discussion' started by tinbucket, Jan 28, 2018.
I might have to come to the dark side..... This is pretty neat!
Light weapons, like light infantry, come to bear faster than heavy weapons.
Like you say, common sense.
Any weapon requires "work" in order to develop the muscle memory to work through the jitters at 150BPM.
The gun you are fastest and most accurate with is the gun you practice the most with.
I had a Daisy Red Ryder that I shot so much I could ROUTINELY light wooden matches at 25 feet by just barely grazing the head of them.
Later, with my Sears single shot .22, at 50 feet I could reliably split a bullet on the edge of an ax and break a balloon on each side of it with half the bullet.
Now, with adulthood mostly behind me, I can not spend so much time with my weapons. I am all set for any SD situation, but trick shots like these are unreachable.
Metal guns are fine until one day you come face to face with an airport metal detector !
( This is about as logical as assuming that a plastic framed gun won't hold up or shoot accurately ) .
I'll say I again. My favorite carry guns are the Ruger and Kahr. Both polymer. Both very lightweight. The lightweight thing is why I carry them.
But they are not my favorites, just my favorite carry. My favorites in the same class is the Wiley Clapp SP101 And the Kahr K9.
These are my weekend carry. What my wife calls my "Sunday go to meeting guns". Shame nobody ever sees them.
4 guns for the same purpose from the same manufacturers. I wonder which ones my kids want when i am gone and which ones will get passed to my grandkids and great grandkids?
I just don't see the plastic ones lasting as long.
Plus, the stainless ones are much prettier!
No jitters involved. Some 'tools' just fit the user better. Granted you can use tools that don't fit you and if you practice you will get better with them, BUT you will never reach the level of proficiently with a tool that does not fit you compared to one that does fit you NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU PRACTICE! I have witnessed this first hand in LE. I have had LEO's who have never used any tool other than a glock for 5 to 15 years of training, practice and quals and they pick up my old S&W and shoot 5 to 10 point higher quals THE FIRST TIME THEY TRY!
While that just may be true, Istill wouldn't want to get hit with a Hi Point. Plastic or not, those things, especia;lly the JHP and JCP, are not light.
I'll have to keep an eye out for one of them. Well worth checking out IMHO.
I can't help but think for a new gun owner, the thought of having 12 to 15 rounds in one magazine is appealing, plus plastic guns are light weight and easier to disassemble.... As for me, I like both, I have plenty of respect for both view points
Well isn't that all a Hi-Point is good for?
Not if you are talking light weight and reliability!!!!
Oh no, they have plenty of uses.
Among them are, counter balance on three cylinder motorcycles, with one pipe on one side, and two on the other, Boat Anchor, dog chew toy, targets for your other pistols, as zinc is a main component in the slide, they make great anodes for the steel frame of your truck, set it on the gas pedal, redneck cruise control, shooting range loaners, metal casting sources, bricks, and they are even cheap enough to pick up enough for winter weight in the bed of the truck.
And, from my own experiences, very reliable with a fair bit of accuracy. They also make good training pistols, as they have very little felt recoil.
See the reply below for the expanded version of this point.
Jim. I have a question for you, not that I expect you to answer it in a non low cost bashing manner, or not as a gun snob, but, is the person who needs a weapon now, but only has between $100 and $200 to spend on the pistol, ammo, and practice\training, not granted the same rights as someone who has a quarter million dollars in their bank account?
Hi Point and Jimenez exizt for a reason, and it's not lust someone wanting to "Cheap out" when buying a handgun. they exist because, there are single mothers out there that know that LE is at least 5 minutes away, when some slime ball looking to rob, rape, and kill them or their kid, is going to do so in less time than LE needs to get there. They exist because the college student, who is not there on mom and dad's dime, and is paying his or her own way, and wants to be capable of SD going to and from class, likely can't afford that brand new Kimber 1911, or even Springfield RO or EMP, and ammo, and training, plus extra mags and holster, ect, but they can swing a $100 used, under a LIFETIME warranty, that even applies to the used buyer (As is the case with SCCY and Glock as well), and easy to order, inexpensive extra magazines from the company, and enough ammo to get good with it, that Hi Point offers.
And yes, I'll even admit to having a JCP, bought from a friend to keep as a house gun for when the daughter was here by herself, that was a good trainer for her, as was the room mate's C9.
And both have worked flawlessly each and every time one of us has pulled the trigger on it. Good enough that he went out and bought all 4 of the HP pistols produced at that time. (And yes, I did ask for some of what he was smoking, as even though they flat out work, one was enough on my end.)
Are there equal, if not better options for a couple hundred more? Yes. Are they the end all, be all of handguns, F*** no. Do they however, put a weapon in someone's hands when they can afford no other pistol at that time? yes.
to me, they are a stop gap measure, not the best, but not the worst, and will hold up well for what they are. A temporary fix that will allow a person to protect them self, while saving up for something better down the road. A case of it beats having nothing, when even a knife would be a blessing from God.
And as there will always be broke people out there that need something for HD\SD, there will always be a market for them, both used and new, and shops will almost always take them in trade, because they know they will sell it sooner, rahter than later.
Anyone who doubts this NEEDS to watch the Hi Point torture tests done by Iraq Veteran 8888, and what it took to finally kill a used C9 and a CF380, that came into Moss Pawn, and couldn't be resold.
Not because the guns were cr@p, but because they were traded in when the owners lost the trigger lock key, and found it cheaper to replace the whole pistol, than to contact Hi Point, which they would have sent a free replacement for the key if it was the factory lock, and after they were taken in, the trigger lock had to be cut off, meaning they couldn't be resold.
Perfect test vic...., er, subjects.
And they did things to that C9 that would have popped a 1911 in short order, repeatedly.
and it gets better from there. these videos, and my friend being jammed up, are the only reason I own one.
I agree 100% with you. If that is all you can afford then it is better than nothing. So you and I see eye to eye on that one. But I would be remiss if I 'recommended' a hi point to any of my students/friends, as they are better than nothing, but not by much!
pure nonsense JimRau. too many times people have torture tested Hi-Point pistols trying to prove they are cheap guns that will fail, or break. and too many times they have proven just the opposite. do a YouTube search for videos if you don't believe me. friend of mine acquired one several years ago and we tried to tear the pistol up with no success.
too many accounts of just how reliable and how they perform. too many accounts of what an excellent warranty and customer service the company has in regards to the ones that do have problems.
at least have the stones to admit you're simply a gun snob, and that you don't like it because it's inexpensive and you would never own one, so that is the real reason you would never recommend them to others. unless you have another reason, as if poor people don't deserve the same consideration of the 2nd Amendment as those with more money, in the ability to protect and defend themselves? are you trying to tell us that only people with money are to be armed to defend themselves against being victims of crime?
personally, i can afford much better, and higher cost guns than a Hi-Point, and that they are clunky and ugly guns, but i would also highly recommend them to someone of limited means to buy a higher cost gun if they needed something for protection. including those on fixed incomes, or a single mother with several children, or anyone that didn't make much money in their job that needed a decent gun for self defense.
Same here Ross.
Back in 2010, I picked up a Ruger LCP for the wife, as she wanted something pocket sized and light, for Summer carry. After pocket carrying it myself on a few trips into Buffalo, I figured out that I needed to buy another one, and lucked into a pair, LCP and LC9, for a decent price, and went that route.
Prior to that point, all I had was metal framed pistols, which I still have, and carry, now, but, I find myslef carrying the polymer ones as often, if not more often, than I do the steel ones. Lighter, and easier to conceal matter far more than precision accuracy, or the ability to beat someone down with said handgun.
And frankly, if you have let them get that close, you really suck at situational awareness, and need to work on that more than your shooting ability IMHO. As well as your hand to hand fighting.
After all, the fastest weapon to bring to bear at that point, will always be your hands, and you will need to create distance to draw, and try to convince them that they picked the wrong target.
And yes, you can strike someone just as hard with a PF9, as you can a 1911. Don't swing. Drive it forward as it hits on a smaller point, and aim for spots that are soft, or pressure points.
More damage that way, with a quicker recovery between strikes.
And if you doubt the effectiveness of that method, think about how it feels to get poked straight on by a branch while out on a woods walk, compared to it slapping across your face instead.
Poke can lead to puncture. Slap just leaves a welt.
I don't believe i want to wait til they are seven or even 15 yards away to engage. My have to but I practice at 30 yards and 50 yards and beyond, or rather I did. I shot walnuts off a 60 ft tree, with Colt Trooper .357. No there were no houses or anything except woods, for many miles behind it.
i want to sit in the courtroom and hear your explanation of shooting someone in self defense at 30 yards, or even 50 yards. try getting a jury and judge to believe that, and let us know how it works out for you!
i'm not sure whether you are aware of it or not, but if you were ever sitting in court, having to defend your justification of using deadly force, they would subpoena everything you have written on social media, or a blog, and probably especially even any gun forums to see if they could determine any leanings towards a criminal act to use against you to convict you of cold-blooded murder.
Good thing 99.9% of us will not have to be in that situation.... But always good to be prepared
The chance of someone using their firearm in self defense is low, but many of us still carry one (or two). The chance of shooting in self defense at 30-50 yards is much much lower, buuuuut
I'm in my open yard, with no cover nearby to protect me from bad guy bullets. A car pulls into my driveway, an obviously distraught individual gets out and starts pointing/shooting his weapon at me. That's when I would wish I was as good with my pistol as old tin, as I would be returning fire as quickly as possible.
if there were mitigating circumstances that justified your actions, then yes.
kind of like the idiots who want to know what is the best ammo to use against a vehicle. unless their are some really good reasons, and they better be some really good ones, shooting at a car leaving your property, you gonna be in some really deep doodoo legally. now if in that situation, an intruder or attacker that just tried to invade my home has taken my wife hostage and is dragging her to his vehicle and they are trying to flee the scene, oh hell yeah, it's game on, and yes, i'd be shooting all kinds of holes in that vehicle to keep it from leaving with her in it. again, there would be mitigating circumstances that i could use to justify my doing so.
a guy running off and was 50 yards off, and was still shooting off rounds at me. yeah, i would return fire. not so much as to actually hit him, but more so that i could safely retreat and to keep him occupied.
the standard that would have to be met, in pretty much legal terms would be, what would a reasonable and prudent person do in that situation. another one that has to be considered, at what point did the attacker, intruder, or invader cease to be a threat. at the point they are leaving or retreating your home or property, legally, they would no longer be considered a threat.