People that use ccw as a license to kill

Discussion in 'Legal and Activism' started by clip11, Feb 6, 2012.

  1. clip11

    clip11 New Member

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    Here in Detroit, I have come across a few people who have the mentality that their CCW permit gives them a license to kill and get away with it. I was explaining to someone that if you provoke a situation, even verbally, to the point of violence, you can't then use your gun against someone and then claim self defense. This person believed that he could get away with saying whatever he wanted to another person to provoke them, and then if the person physically attacked him, he could then shoot them and not have to worry about jail.

    I explained that it doesn't work that way and that a jury would probably be more sympathetic to someone illegally concealed carrying but had to use their weapon in a legitimate self defense situation, than someone who had legal paperwork to CCW and purposely put themselves in a situation to be able to use their gun. People who think like that hurt the cause for the rest of us.
     
  2. joehawk

    joehawk New Member

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    I know in NJ it is stipulated that you must be thoroughly familiar with existing law in regards to use of deadly force. If someone is using his/her CCW as a means to provoke or alarm then it is in the public's interest that it be revoked. IMHO
     

  3. joehawk

    joehawk New Member

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    BTW: if they use it to provoke someone and then murder that person I believe that would be considered pre-meditated murder.
     
  4. joehawk

    joehawk New Member

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    I stress if that (murder) was their intention in the 1st place.
     
  5. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    If you shoot someone- under ANY circumstances, it WILL be a life changing event. Even a "good" shooting.

    In general, it is considered that an armed person has a responsibility to conduct themselves in a better manner than someone that is not. Anyone that thinks their CCW makes them into 007 has a wakeup call waiting for them.

    However, this is valuable information to you. You are now aware that THIS person is an idiot. You are thereby enabled to distance yourself from the idiot, not place trust in their judgement in other matters, and possibly buy THEIR guns at distress sale prices when they need the money to hire the lawyer.
     
  6. RecklessRegard

    RecklessRegard New Member

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    Its been said time and time again... An armed society is a polite society.
     
  7. Tackleberry1

    Tackleberry1 New Member

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    Wow, yet another reason to avoid Detroit. In 16 years of CCW I've never met another permitte with this kind of attitude. Were I you, I'd put a Lot of distance between myself and this guy. His mindset will likely lead to a catastrophic melt down and you do not want to be in the same Zip code when it happens.

    I've had dozens of people seek my council when considering a CCW. Beyond the safety advice and the "which gun should I get" questions I allways work my philosophy into the conversation and the philosophy is this:

    "Having a gun DOES NOT make you a cop anymore than having a fire extinguisher makes you a Fireman. Both are simply tools who's purpose is to help you deal with a potentially deadly situation UNTIL PROFFESIONAL help arrives."

    If they do not enthusiastically embrace my mindset, the advice ends as does the relationship. Of course that's never happened to me. Everyone I've counseled were already known to me as stand up solid citizens and all have gone on to CCW without getting themselves in any trouble.

    Yes, concealed means concealed but we all have friends and family who know out status and it is incumbent on ALL of us to act as good ambassadors for our cause. We want those around us who know our status to be comforted by the fact that we are armed, not intimidated.

    Feel free to share these ideas with you fiend and if he scoffs, go the other way quickly and share your concern with an LEO.

    It's far better for all of us if his headline reads "Revoked CCW permitte was arrested for murder today".

    Tack
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2012
  8. Paladin201

    Paladin201 New Member

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    Some people are just not temperamentally suited to be carrying a gun.

    #3 on Massad Ayoob's Ten Commandments of Concealed Carry......

    Don’t Let The Gun Make You Reckless

    The courts have shown time and time again that a person carrying a gun is held to a higher standard of conduct than an unarmed person. Carrying a gun does not give you a license to walk around in Central Park at 3:00am trolling for muggers. It also means that when presented with a potentially violent situation you do everything possible to avoid and/or defuse the situation. If someone attempts to provoke a fight, you turn and walk away, no matter who many times they throw insults at you..."Hey come back and fight like a man you *****". Just keep walking. If you are involved in a shooting, it has to be absolutely clear to anyone with an IQ of 3 (liberals) that the situation was forced on you and you had no other choice.

    I had the benefit that my CCW instructor is a retired lawyer. And he hammered on this aspect of CCW, over and over. There was a time if a guy cut me off on the highway, I'd give him several varieties of negative feedback. Not so any more. I just swallow my pride and let it go. I have to.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2012
  9. Chainfire

    Chainfire Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In Florida, as I understand it, you may only use a firearm to stop a "deadly" threat. Unless you are old, or disabled, where the concept of "disparity of force" enters the situation, you better not shoot anyone who is not attacking you with "deadly force". Generally, in public, if I tell you I am going to kill you, even in front of witnesses, you can't legally shoot me, unless and until I also show you the means to carry out the threat and the intention to actually do so. If I threaten to whip your ugly butt and proceed to do the same, you still can't shoot me. An *** whoopin with a set of fist is not a "deadly threat" and would not warrant drawing a firearm.

    In you are in your home or auto, some of these situations change in a hurry as we have a "Castle Doctrine" that makes it much easier to legally defend your space, but that is a long way from the situation you described.

    The person who attempts to bait someone into a situation where he can kill them is a psycopath and does not need to be within 100 feet of a firearm, unless it is sitting on the hip of the person who carries him away.
     
  10. therewolf

    therewolf New Member

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    This CCW holder is trolling for a bad shoot and headed for trouble.

    I'd distance myself from them, if possible, before they do something

    you'll regret.

    I feel the urge to digress to the Movie Zombieland here,

    because many of the same rules apply to CCW holders.

    "Don't be a hero."

    "Seatbelts."

    "Cardio."

    "Check the back seat."

    "Beware of bathrooms." etc.


    What my CCW permit has given me is a heightened sense of awareness,

    specifically towards avoiding bad situations which would

    precipitate a need to shoot.

    As well as a new tolerance for others, who share brain cells,

    act arrogantly rude, and obviously belong in a state like NJ...
     
  11. orangello

    orangello New Member

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    Twolf, you forgot:
    Don't use a firearm you purchased
    don't use a firearm registered to you
    don't use a firearm listed with the local Sheriff as YOURS
    and of course
    don't forget to ask for lube (it can't hurt to ask, but will hurt if you don't ask)
     
  12. Kalash1138

    Kalash1138 New Member

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    A CCW permit is a HUGE responsibility and you better have good common sense to AVOID pulling a gun at all cost, or having to shoot & kill another human being. I'd suggest your friend watch the "Best Defense" on the Outdoor Channel. Avoid the fight, if possible.
     
  13. Ranger-6

    Ranger-6 New Member

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    When I go to a big box store on a busy weekend, I can bet there are 100 people there who are carrying.
    Strangely, I don't ever hear peep that would represent that they were packing.
    Grandma is such a quiet person, but deadly with that .38 in her purse.
     
  14. woody63m

    woody63m New Member

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    So i have a question alot of you know my medical situation the only thing covering my intestines is a thin layer of skin and thays it i have no abdominal muscle at all so if someone came at me at me to hit me and i shot him what dk you think the outcome in court would because if someone punches me in the gut im as good as dead.
     
  15. rigjumpr

    rigjumpr New Member

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    The situation that the op has described is and will always be the thorn in the side of the law-abiding conscientious gun owner. I, personally, would be the first in line to revoke his license for just saying that kind of sh#t. He may have the right to own a firearm but it sounds as if he has some maturing to do before handling such a large responsibility.
     
  16. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    Woody- when it comes to legal advice, we make great cookies. This is really not the place for shopping for pointers on law. Most of us never passed the bar (any bar- always stopped for a beer)

    The GENERAL rule on use of deadly force in self defense- the defender must believe that they are in grave danger of death or serious bodily harm. A person that has hemophilia (blood does not clot) would be terrified by someone coming after them with a knife.
     
  17. woody63m

    woody63m New Member

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    Roger that
     
  18. gmaster456

    gmaster456 New Member

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    Friend or not, I would at the very least keep my distance from him if not report him. If I'm not mistaken, in the situation your describing he could be charged with pre meditated murder. If he ever shoots someone like that, he can kiss his gun rights goodbye, along with his life, because he will be in prison for a very, very long time.
     
  19. Chandler51

    Chandler51 New Member

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    The person you mention is very damaging to legal, law abiding, responsible gun owners. He is the type of CCP holder that the anti-gunners are COUNTING on.

    I always make sure to tell the person that, and to articulate to them my preference that they don't acquire a gun at all...much less a permit to carry.
     
  20. partdeux

    partdeux Well-Known Member

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    Tom Gresham on his radio show had a great discussion on that point a few weeks ago. He said to plan on 100k in expenses, even after a valid self defense shoot. After reading the story on the XD forum about what someone had to deal with after a valid home invasion self defense shoot, it was eye opening.

    OP - have this tool come to one of the Michigan Open Carry seminars. They can maybe have an enlightening discussion with him. Frankly, there's enough problems with people thinking we're a bunch of out of control gun toting yahoo's without providing proof that some are.