Out of the Box Accuracy

Discussion in 'General Rifle Discussion' started by canebrake, Dec 3, 2010.

  1. canebrake

    canebrake New Member

    Minute of Angle (MOA) Accuracy Out of the Box
    GunsAmerica, DECEMBER 3, 2010

    Out of the Box Accuracy
    Can Minute of Angle (MOA) Really Be True?

    by Paul Helinski & Ben Becker

    Pick up just about any gun magazine these days and you will see ads for MOA accuracy, guaranteed, out of the box. MOA means “minute of angle,” which is 1/360th of a circle. It seems like a great selling point and I’m sure it sells a lot of guns, but I wondered if the claims were actually true. If you don’t understand MOA it is understandable. what does a fraction of a circle have to do with the accuracy of a rilfe? But we’ll get to that.

    Not everyone is capable of shooting MOA, even with the most accurate rifle, so I employed our local neighborhood US Army Sniper (and GunsAmerica Magazine contributor), Ben Becker. The results are astounding. All of the rifles we tested (and we didn’t just test rifles that advertise MOA) shot into or nearly into a minute of angle at 100 yards. Some even did it for 10 and more rounds in a row, without cool down. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, we are living in the Golden Age of firearms manufacturing. This is incredible stuff.

    Please don’t take this as a “head to head” comparison for these rifles against each other or against other rifles in the market we didn’t test. The list of guns we tested is in no way comprehensive. We were able to get rifles from Beretta (Sako, Tikka), Savage, Thompson Center and CZ. Noticeably absent are of course Remington, Browning, Winchester, Weatherby, Ruger and others. This article was not meant to be comprehensive. We just wanted to see what is going on out there in some quality production rifles and these are the ones we could get. There is no reason to believe that the rifles missing from this test wouldn’t perform just as soundly as the rifles we were able to shoot.

    Accuracy Defined

    The world “accuracy” as it applies to a rifle may not be what you think it is. Some people consider a rifle “accurate” if it shoots to point of aim. True “accuracy” is not whether it shoots to point of aim. That it just a matter of sight adjustment. True “accuracy” is how consistent, shot to shot, the rifle is, removing all human error and other variables.

    No rifle is 100% accurate. Even if held in a vise and the trigger pulled by a robot, no rifle will shoot through the exact same hole every time. Even the most precise competition rifles may appear to be 100% accurate at 100 yards, but will show a sub-minute of angle deviation at 200 or 500 yards. A “minute of angle” or MOA, is 1/60th of 1/360th of a circle (each degree is split into 60 minutes), like degrees on a compass. The actual measured span of this type of angular measurement changes as you move further from the target. One minute of angle at 100 yards equals one inch. At 200 yards this actual measurement on the target is two inches, three hundred is three inches, and so on. Yards and inches conveniently give this relationship. Think of it like the beam of a flashlight on a foggy day. As you get further away the light circle gets bigger on what it hits. This “minute of angle” span also gets bigger as you get further away. This is accuracy.

    When a rifle is advertised as “MOA” out of the box, it is telling you that it is guaranteed to shoot a number of bullets, all human and environmental factors removed of course, into one inch at 100 yards. Some manufacturers don’t specify the number of bullets in a row they guarantee, some do. And sometimes that number is 3 and sometimes it is 5.

    Real World Shooting

    Accuracy only matters when you apply it to your actual application, or applications. Nobody buys a hunting rifle for it to just sit in the safe. You expect to and are going to be out hunting with it. What you hunt is going to determine how you expect a MOA rifle to perform. If you are a deer hunter, an advertised 3 shot MOA gun might be just fine. You don’t expect to take more than one shot ideally, and three shots in the space of two inches at 200 yards is surgical enough to get the job done for sure.

    If you are hunting hogs, prairie dogs or other critters that don’t have bag limits and upon which you can stumble on a whole bunch of them hanging out for the pickings, 5 shots may not even be enough. How the barrel performs after several rounds heat the gun up will matter to you, and matter a great deal. And don’t discount the use of a modern hunting rifle as a tactical weapon. Accuracy is accuracy, and in a tactical situation, who knows what kind of sustained fire you might need out of the gun.

    It would be much “safer” for us to just test these guns at 3 shots each, and we did start out the tests with 3 shot test targets. But we aren’t here for proving marketing claims. Aren’t you curious if the MOA guns are barely in the ballpark of MOA at 3 or 5 rounds, or if they consistently deliver MOA over 10 or more rounds? We were.

    The good news is that the rifles did perform, not just in three and five shot groups, but also in ten and twenty shot groups. Holding even an inch and a half over 10 rounds with no cool down time is thought to be impossible for a “thin barreled” hunting rifle. But we proved that this new generation of rifle technology is like no other. You may not see it in any marketing claims, but in our basic testing with brown box Hornady Ammunition, we found that you can count on these guns even when you heat them up.

    Our Test Rifles

    The Simply Stunning Sako

    Every article for GunsAmerica Magazine starts out as an idea. The Sako A7 was the impetus for this article. Beretta advertised extensively on GunsAmerica and used our On Demand system to sell these rifles for over a year. They are advertised at 5 shot MOA guaranteed. Made in Finland for decades, the Sako line is famous for quality and accuracy, but at $750 out the door, this price point was unheard of at the time for a 5 shot MOA guaranteed.

    That made us very eager to get out and test this bargain price Sako. The results were stunning to say the least. Three shots, five shots, and even ten shots went into the same ragged hole, time after time after time. The adjustable trigger (that we never bothered adjusting) is an absolute pleasure to shoot and the gun has an easy and light feel. Beretta promises world class accuracy in this gun and I feel that they deliver it handily.

    Thompson Center/TC Arms – Master Gun Makers Indeed

    The TC Icon is truly a best in class when it comes to fit and finish, but TC also promises a 3 shot MOA guarantee on this rifle. They call it the “Foundation for Accuracy” and the Icon utilizes their accuracy certified 5R rifling. We tested the stainless steel and synthetic stock version of the gun. There is also a wood stocked model for all of you traditionalists out there.

    What can you say when a rifle advertised at 3 rounds into an inch at 100 yards shoots into .559 inches at 100 yards over not 3 but 5 rounds? The Icon easily kept its promise for TC for accuracy, and even at 10 rounds it shot into 1.15 inches. This is with no cool down whatsoever, bang bang, bang, reload, bang, bang, bang, reload, bang, bang, bang, reload, bang. That three round magazine kills you, but at least you know you aren’t going to miss. And at just around a thousand bucks the Icon is a very special gun.

    The TC Venture is perhaps the best value in a hunting rifle in America from what I have seen. You get the same “Master Gun Maker” fit and finish found in the Icon, and the guaranteed MOA, at half the price. The styling and finish aren’t as elegant as the Icon, but it is after all half the price. What a rifle for under $500!

    We can’t find the 10 round target that we shot for this gun, and nobody remembers what the measurement was exactly, but it was under 1.5″ for 10 rounds. We did retain the 3 round target that we benchmarked all the rifles with at first however. As you can see in the picture, it was 3 rounds into .590 inches, like the Icon at 5 rounds, just over half an inch, with no cool down. Again, the promise made by TC is not only kept, but exceeded by almost double.

    The Inexpensive Savage… is a Savage

    The Savage Axis series carries an MSRP of $329. It is an entirely new design from Savage and has a top strap, unlike the famous Model 10/110, and a 4 round box magazine. Our model tested came with a carbon steel blue barrel and synthetic stock. If there was one rifle that should **not** have performed well it was this one. Savage makes no accuracy claims in its advertising or on the website. There is no patented Savage Accutrigger(TM) on the gun. And although Savage is known for accuracy above all, and the Axis barrel is free floated on the stock (theoretically reducing harmonics), this is a no frills hunting rifle at a no frills price. You would think that it would have no frills accuracy as well.

    But you know what? This crazy little Savage put 20 rounds into a hole no bigger than a half dollar at 100 yards like it was born and bred to do it! For 3 rounds the Savage came in at .869 inches, not as good as I think it can do, and 10 rounds at exactly an inch, 1.004. Savage has always been known for being the Cadillac of out of the box accuracy in American rifles, but in a $329 rifle I felt that this level of accuracy was over the top. The Axis may be an entry level hunting rifle, but take it as an example of what you’ll discover in a quality American made Savage.

    The Surprising CZ

    The CZ American 550 is another rifle that is not advertised to be holding at MOA accuracy. You would think when picking it up that this is your grandfather’s old Pre-64 Winchester. The wooden stocked model we tested is absolutely gorgeous, with fine checkering and an old world feel that you only get with a factory that has been making Mauser action bolt rifles since before you were born.

    You really wouldn’t think that a traditional, wooden stocked rifle, made by an old European rifle maker would deliver sub-MOA results out at the range, but for this rifle I knew it was going to perform before it even arrived. We had given away a CZ in .416 Rigby at the NRA Show this past year in Charlotte. When the winner received the rifle he emailed us his test target that came with the rifle. The test target had three rounds, each big enough to stick your pinky through, drilled into less than an inch center to center. On seeing this we sent a request into CZ to send a gun for this article. They did, and told us that all of their guns are test fired for accuracy, and they all shoot into less than an inch.

    This test gun bettered that by almost half. We fired 3 rounds at 100 yards into .547 inches, and the ten round group came in at just over an inch, at 1.22. Sniper accuracy out of an old world gun. That is amazing. The CZ isn’t a rifle that you see in every gun shop you walk into, but ask your local dealer to order you one. This rifle will not disappoint.

    Tikka Makes the Grade… and Possibly More

    The Tikka T3 Lite Stainless is the last gun in our test, and like the others it performed extremely well. Tikka is brought into the US by Beretta USA like the Sako, and they too are made in Finland on the same machinery that produces $3500 Sako 85s. The quality and workmanship are superb, and as a low priced rifle, the 3 shot MOA guarantee is surprising. Of all the rifles we were able to test, the Tikka was the one I was the most curious about. I can’t say I was surprised when it came in well under an inch for 3 rounds, but I was surprised when 10 rounds came in at 1.18 inches, with no cool down. The highest variance in that string was lateral, which it shouldn’t be on a 90 degree day in south Florida. It should string vertically because the barrel is hotter and more floppy. That suggests that it was human error opening the 10 round group to over an inch. Ben is darn good, but not perfect, and this is a rifle I would like to test again.

    So if MOA Out of the Box is New, What Changed?

    Even five years ago nobody would have expected to buy a rifle of the shelf and get the accuracy you see here in our tests for under $1000, which all of our rifles come in under. When several gun companies who have been making rifles for decades come out with advertisements that their out of the box guns are now shooting “MOA,” something has to have changed. You used to have to pay a gunsmith hundreds of dollars to custom bed your rifle to get MOA, and as you will see from my tests, most of these rifles are shooting sub-MOA right out of the box with regular thickness barrels. So what changed?

    Metallurgy and Machining - When we think of those deer rifles that shot into 2 inches if you were lucky, we are thinking about old guns. New guns are made with new alloys and more importantly, CNC cutting tools and advanced measurement tools that are head and shoulders above the old stuff. There is a whole new body of knowledge about how to make metal things more consistent, and capabilities to finer tune the modern rifle to record out of the box accuracy. I don’t think better accuracy happened by accident. New knowledge and capabilities have meant better products, and we reap the results.

    Ammo, Ammo, Ammo – In the interest of full disclosure, Hornady is the official ammo sponsor of GunsAmerica and we did use Hornady Ammo for almost all of our testing. But we entered into the agreement with Hornady for a reason.

    They introduced all of shooting sports to an entirely new generation of consistent ammunition. You may think that all ammunition is equal but it is not. There are “tolerances” to any manufacturing process. At the cyclic rate that ammunition machines run at, variances in everything from powder charge to seating depth to jacket thickness can be huge, and effect accuracy a great deal. Before the Hornady revolution (pun intended), inconsistency was more the norm in factory ammo than consistency. If you couldn’t get better than a 3 inch group out of your old deer rifle, most likely at least half the problem was the ammo. Today’s rifle manufacturer relies on consistent ammo to get those “Guaranteed MOA” claims, and the consistency of Hornady ammo was proven out in every one of our test rifles. We’ll stick with the brown box.

    Consumer Awareness and New Priorities – This is a case of which came first chicken or the egg. But when it comes to MOA accuracy, I think the custom rifle market had a lot to do with the improvements in production rifles. When a large percentage of the market is buying old Mauser actions and having them mated with custom barrels and custom bedded stocks to produce a $1500 MOA hunting rifle, the product development people at the manufacturers saw an opportunity. Seeing that both metallurgy and ammo had come so far, they pushed their own abilities to do what the custom rifle people were already doing, and a whole new era of the hunting rifle market was born.

    Are All Rifles Like This Now?

    We tested 6 rifles from 4 manufacturers. All of them performed well above what you would think for out of the box hunting rifles. Can you extrapolate this to the entire gun industry and assume that all modern bolt rifles are producing this kind of accuracy when fed consistent Hornady Ammunition? We don’t know. But now that we have measured the results for these rifles maybe we will take the time and follow up this article with offerings from Remington, Winchester, Browning, Ruger, Weatherby, Mossberg and anyone else who comes a calling. Stay tuned!

    Can I Shoot MOA?

    This is the million dollar question. Now that you know your rifle can most likely easily shoot MOA, the question becomes can you shoot MOA. Notice for these tests that even Ben, a trained US Army Sniper with more than one tour of duty under his belt used a Lead Sled from Caldwell to hold the gun steady and absorb recoil. He did this because eliminating human factors is really the only way you can test the hardware for what it is, hardware. Trigger control and sight picture also factor into what you will actually be able to shoot with your gun, as well as the quality of your optics and mounts. Ben has already begun a series on the methods he learned in US Army Sniper School. Also check out our article this month on the Telydyne Tech Straightjacket. We sent them the Sako A7 from this article and the Savage Axis as well and had them modify their guns with their exciting technology. Then we brought them to the 500 yard range and mounted a $2000 Vortex Razor optic on them for true long range shooting. You can never stop learning when it comes to shooting and GunsAmerica Magazine is a great resource to become a sub-MOA shooter.
  2. aandabooks

    aandabooks Active Member

    Great article. Thanks for posting this.

    It just goes to show that the rifles that are being made today at all price points are capable of phenomenal accuracy. Just depends on how much you want to spend on style and options what the looks of the gun will be.

  3. rifleman55

    rifleman55 New Member

    Great write up. Savage also makes the Stevens brand rifles, which are also excellent shooters for a very low price.

    If you want MOA right out of the box at a reasonable price, the Savage is darn hard to beat.
    See my piece on why you should buy a savage.

    My gunsmith at Savagegunsmithing, when he replaces a barrel and accurizes a Savage, he guarentees .3" at 100 yds minimun, most shoot better. That's some darn good accuracy. He test fires every rifle he builds and they don't leave the shop unless they shoot .3" or better with his recommended ammo.

    John K
  4. PTsouthpaw

    PTsouthpaw New Member

    Thanks for the great read, Cane.

    I have a Savage Hunter Model 11 (lefty) and I love it. It is nice that they offer so many left handed models too, unlike most companies. I have recently been looking at getting another of their rifles, probably not an Axis though (they may be quality, but they sure are ugly IMO). I really want to try out the accutrigger and accustock.
  5. mrm14

    mrm14 Active Member

    Great post! Man you nailed it right on the head in the last paragraph of your post "the question becomes can you shoot MOA" For me it has taken alot of trigger time and good folks that are in the know getting 5 miles up my arse on the fireing line with trigger and positonal techniques for me to just begin to overcome my errors that made my accuracy suffer.

    Trigger time is not only on the fireing line but also Dry Fire, Dry Fire, Dry Fire... For me practicing proper techniques until they near become muscle memory. Sometimes 3 or so nights a week for 2 or more hours at a time. This has made a positive difference for me in long range shooting.

    The rifle has a level of precision but the accuracy is up to the shooter.
  6. JonM

    JonM Moderator

    at 100yds moa groups arent too hard with practice and technique and depending on your optics. for me to shoot moa at 100 i need at least a 6x scope nowadays. 20 years ago i could do it with a 4x scope and on rare flukish occasions with iron sights. moa at 200-300-400-500 etc is a much different beast.

    its not easy but its doable. my ruger 44 carbine with great care to load uniformity has turned in an occasional moa 3 shot string. most rifles even older ones are surprisingly accurate with ammo tuned to its particuler needs.

    factory ammo has progressed quite a bit over the years in quality some of it even starting to rival the quality of home grown rounds. im of the opinion that the advances in modern factory produced ammo has more to do with some of these rifle's moa claims more so than the rifle makers themselves.
  7. Ronbo

    Ronbo New Member

    savage edge

    I bought a savage edge at walmart last night out of their remaining edge inventory before the axis replaces it . I bought their only .308 and sighted it in with a simmons 3-9x40 i had on my edge in .223. Six shots and i was done. each pair was nearly cutting an oblong hole and the last two were closer together than the other two pairs. I am not nearly used to the gun and have to work tonight, but i will be shooting it more than i expected to i think. I love my .223 as it now wears a 4-12x 40 bushnell i also bought last night. same deal...6 shots and done, but i shoot it much better being used to it. I shot two, shot two, shot 1 and put the final one dead center with scope adjustments between the above shot groups. All final shots , even with the .308 were in the bull. This is the gun i shot my deer with this year on a last minute hunt. It is the reason i chose the edge for my "deer" gun in .308. I shot him in the heart at 177 laser measured yards with the .223. I DID take a follow up shot at the slumped over deer, which didn't take a single step. It entered two inches from the first. For hunting conditions, bolt action and after a 12 hour night shift, the rifle is one i knew i could count on, or i wouldn't have even taken the shot. I love these savage edge rifles. Axis is clearly a great deal. I don't know about the package scopes, but somebody else might.

    Excellent article, thanks so much.

    God Bless!

    Last edited: Dec 4, 2010
  8. Sniper03

    Sniper03 Supporting Member Supporter


    Excellent article my friend!
    It is amazing what quality and accuracy some of the new rifles are producing. I love my SAKO Finnbear. I have had it for years it is 243 Win Cal and unbelievably accurate. I recently purchased a new Remington CDL in 7mm Rem Mag. And out of the box it shot a .471 five shot group at 100. I did allow it to cool between rounds since it is a slim barrel and not a bull. I used Remington 150gr Accu-Tip ammunition for the test with five other manufacturer's rounds in 150 gr. Never used Remington Ammunition much before but it was phenomenal. Also worked wonderfully on the Texas deer and pigs last month. Once again I enjoyed your article and appreciate the time and effort spent to produce it. Great Job!;)

  9. canebrake

    canebrake New Member

    Wow, keep the feedback coming guys.

    This seams to be a good subject.

    I likes me some tack drivers! ;)
  10. Fisherking

    Fisherking New Member

    Great post Crane I realy enjoyed reading it.
    I recently bought a savage Varminter and with home rolled amo I can put 20 rounds in and cover them with a peny at 100 yrds.
  11. jpattersonnh

    jpattersonnh Active Member

    One portion of the topic that always seems to be forgotten is Newer is not always better. Most old rifles, We are talking early 1900's through 1965 are true shooters and pieces of art in their own way, better quality also. My Savage is a great rifle, so is my Howa, but for some reason, no one wants the old classics. If you read my posts, I love my Classic Mauser '96 and '98 action hunting rifles. You really don't need a new whizz bang magnum caliber to hunt with. Do I need to shoot over 400 yards? Nope, I'm a hunter. I am also a shooter. Can I hit a target at 600? Yes. Will I take a shot at 600 yards on a Whitetail, no. The 2 biggest animals I've ever taken were within 35 yards. Most people don't take the time to shoot enough bullets down range at distance to make an ethical shot. They don't really know what their limits or the limits of their equipment is. Try packing into the Rockies in the Fall, it is always snowing or will snow from Sept 1 on. It can be very cold or 60 degrees. Sleep on the ground and eat minimal food for a few days, you'll be surprised at how bad you really are. I find my old, outdated rifles and calibers really shine when it gets bad. I always see posts about stainless and synthetic combos. I have never used one on a hunt. If I had a choice of Firearms for a Grizzly hunt it would be an open sight 9.3x62 or .416 Rigby in an open sight Mauser. The really big problem is because people think the rifle is the balls and uber accurate, they are, and can take any thing that walks at range, even if neither is up to the task. Shooting from a bench is not shooting. Sorry for the rant.
  12. Ronbo

    Ronbo New Member

    althought it's from a bench....

    Agreed the hunter needs to hunt and be able to shoot in field conditions. It is nice to know that there is a cold bore shot capability with the weapon of choice too.

    Here's today's cold bore shot at 50 yards with my savage edge in .308, which is currently zero'd at 50 yards to shoot in my backyard shooting range, so i can check zero and shoot it frequently. It shoots the same as my Savage edge in .223, which i took my deer with this year. Confidence in an accurate rifle, both cold-bore and once it's warm from multiple shots is the reason i could use my little gun for deer before i even bought my new one. the .223 wasn't my first choice, for deer, but it was a last minute invite, it was what I had, and it worked great because it was accurate and i could shoot it. Speaks well for the new rifles i think.

  13. TGReaper

    TGReaper New Member

    Excellent article ,thank you.

  14. jpattersonnh

    jpattersonnh Active Member


    Sorry, but 50 yards is nothing. That is .22lr range. I'll do that w/ my Howa .308 at 200 yards. Oh wait, you were using a bench/rest! I'll post some pics of 75 year old rifles and groups. They most likely cost the same as your Savage. It is 16 degrees here. I bet I can outshoot you w/ 16 degree temps and 15MPH winds. Cold bore, off hand. Make the target moving? I'm game. Winner takes the losers rifle! I'll shoot an open sight rifle. I've been shooting since I'm 11. Started in NRA smallbore. No support except me (no rest, bench). An accurate rifle is only 1/3 of the equation. Glad Savage is still making a fine rifle, but you are late to the party on that. I keep reading about Savage and cheap Savage rifles. I don't think I'd ever consider buying one again. I do believe most is BS. JMHO
  15. whtsmoke

    whtsmoke New Member

    jp you spoke of the old and it brought back a memory of a rifle i use to ahve years ago,more than i want to remeber. it was a 98 mauser, bolt face reworked for a rimmed cartidge with a douglas bbl on it chambered in 219 Ackley Improved Zipper, god i wish i still had the old girl she sure shot those ragged holes all day long.
  16. King Ghidora

    King Ghidora New Member

    There's no doubt there are some accurate shooters from times gone by but even the cheap rifles seem to shoot great now. That was not always the case. Maybe some rifle that cost about the same as a new Savage could shoot very well but inflation has changed what $400 is worth these days and that Edge is a lot cheaper than

    IMO accuracy dropped off for many guns from the period when Remington and Winchester dominated the shooting sports. They still do in some ways of course but I think Savage is the undisputed king of the modern rifle. You can buy or build a better shooting Savage for less money than an equally accurate rifle from pretty much any other company. There are some great shooters from other companies too but I think Savage will get you there cheaper and I think they can sell you a world class shooter for a lot less than a customer builder can put one together. The results of F class shooting seem to bear that out. Savage is beating the pants off custom built rifles with off the rack rifles. That is an amazing thing IMO. Savage didn't create any magic to build those rifles. They just copied what the custom builders were doing and sold you the parts you wanted right from the start. It's no doubt more expensive to buy a Savage that's as ready to shoot as their F class rifles but still it's way cheaper than a custom rifle. And with a couple of mods you can really have an incredibly good shooting rifle if you do buy a top of the line Savage.

    I have several Savage rifles as you might have guessed. I've always known them to make quality rifles at all price points. My early 50's, single shot .22 Stevens is as accurate as any .22 I own. But my early 90's Savage 110 in .30-06 just isn't as accurate as my Savage 12 LRPV single shot with the target action. That rifle has made me look like Annie Oakley (well sorta - you know what I mean :) ). It's just so easy to shoot accurate that it freaks me out. And I know it could get better with a better trigger. It "only" goes down to 12 oz's before it starts having problems with the AT kicking in all the time. An SSS trigger would get me down much lower which should make it more accurate. But it shoots better than any rifle I've ever picked up the way it is. I can shoot a 3" group at a quarter of a mile. Considering there aren't many places to even practice shooting that far around my area that's pretty good for me. I don't have much experience shooting that far. And I know it will do better if I practice more.
  17. DPSTX

    DPSTX New Member

    Out of the Box Accuracy
    Can Minute of Angle (MOA) Really Be True?

    by Paul Helinski & Ben Becker

    Pick up just about any gun magazine these days and you will see ads for MOA accuracy, guaranteed, out of the box. MOA means “minute of angle,” which is 1/360th of a circle. It seems like a great selling point and I’m sure it sells a lot of guns, but I wondered if the claims were actually true. If you don’t understand MOA it is understandable. what does a fraction of a circle have to do with the accuracy of a rilfe? But we’ll get to that.

    Just to clarify,....... 1/360th of a circle would be 1 DOA :)cool:); 1 DEGREE of angle, 1 MOA is 1/21600th of a circle. 360 degrees in a circle, 60 minutes in each degree.

  18. Cory2

    Cory2 New Member

    Savage's are excellent rifles, anyone who disagrees with that is either biased blind or dumb. It is true that they have been absolutely murdering the competition in f class and that may be hard to take for some people who spent $4000 or more on their custom built 30lb good for nothing but benchrest shooting target rifle. But facts are facts. I like 'old school' guns a damn lot my self but im not going to dispute that a modern firearm is superior in the accuracy department at the very least.

    I would be interested to see a test of the Thompson/Center Icon Warlord, the shooters bible claims it will shoot .5 MOA out of the box and I wonder if it will outperform the claims like the regular Icon did. I would never buy one because if im going to spend $2700 on a rifle its going to shoot .50BMG and have been made just up the road (Berret) but it would still be interesting to know. Also a test on the high end Savage's would be nice too.

    Stay away from the R700's until Remmington stops making garbage that blows up in your face when you turn the safety on (flame on guys :p).

    On a side note, nice article. It was enlightening to read about guns I had never considered to be tac drivers. Any gun that will put holes through holes and has a safety thats safe to use (ironic i know but apparently needs to be said) and costs less than a grand is an excellent rifle in my books.
  19. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

    Thanks for the interesting read. I don't know either of the author's but as they are paid to write, it would appear they did a great job. :p

    I am afraid my old friend this is a topic that I am not going to touch any further with a 10 foot pole. :cool:
  20. cpttango30

    cpttango30 New Member

    Really it is minute of Arc not angle. But who is splitting hairs.

    I think a lot has to do with the machine equipment out today and the use of computer controlled cutting heads.

    Old rifle were sure works of art doesn't mean that current firearms art not the same work of art. They just take a different route to get to home plate.

    I am with JD on not really touching this one.