Opinions on open carry right now.

Discussion in 'Legal and Activism' started by p35bhp55, Aug 5, 2019.

  1. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Well-Known Member

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    Tamara Keel wrote an article about open carry in which she said "There are people who open carry and people who open carry AT YOU." She went on to predict that if the practice continued sooner or later there would be some pushback.

    I have some friends who live in Texas and they told me that when the open carry activists finally got open carry legislation passed a bunch of businesses that had never been posted against concealed carry immediately put up 30.07 signs and they put up 30.06 signs right next to them.

    When Starbucks got caught in the middle of the controversy they solved the problem by specifically asking their customers not to bring any guns at all to their stores. In many states that simple request has the force of law.

    When some idiot in a Tac vest walked into a Walmart in Springfield Missouri carrying an AR less than a week after somebody shot 20 something people in a Walmart in El Paso Texas Walmart responded by banning open carry in all of their stores Nationwide.

    Kroger's, King Soopers, Safeway, Food Lion, Target and the list goes on followed suit. I can't know this of course but I suspect that if the open carry idiots push the issue these businesses will respond by banning all carry on their property.

    Open carry is not winning us any Hearts or Minds. In fact it's turning people against us.

    There is not a single, reputable trainer who advocates open carry that I am aware of.

    Subject to the rights of property owners to ban the practice on their property, I think you should be your choice but it's not something you'll ever catch me doing.
     
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  2. Maser

    Maser Well-Known Member

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    And if there is, I am pretty sure they would not advocate the open carry of multiple sidearms and long guns all at once all the while trying to get cop's attention or freak out the general public all for YouTube views.
     

  3. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Well-Known Member

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    Lot of Truth to that
     
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  4. TelstaR

    TelstaR Active Member

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    people do not write articles about the potential perils of open carry simply because it my cause an inconvenience or ruffled feathers. There are a few tactical and strategic concerns. I will admit that if OC is common place and you do not stick out as the most obvious and immediate threat to the active criminal, those tactical and strategic concerns may diminish. OC may be common place in some areas of the US but generally speaking, its not. I live in an open carry State and I can go years without seeing someone open carrying.
     
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  5. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure what you're trying to communicate here but people write articles about the potential perils of open carry all the time.

    Greg Ellefritz writes articles about the potential perils of open carry.

    John Correia makes videos about the potential perils of open carry.

    Tamara Keel writes articles about the potential perils of open carry.

    I don't remember if Kathy Jackson has written an article specifically dealing with open carry but I'm pretty sure she's commented on it as well.
     
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  6. Ghost1958

    Ghost1958 Well-Known Member

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    All due respect there are no states where a public request by a business not to carry , OC or otherwise, over the media carries the FOL. Signage yes, a mere request over media no.

    We dont have Targets here but I've OCed in Krogers as well and again a big nothing burger.

    Trainers dont advocate OC because of their bottom line pure and simple.
    The huge majority of states have OC with nothing required. CC requires a permit. Guess who makes their living from training permit holders.

    As far as writing articles about the " potential perils" of OC, one can write several articles about the perils of drinking to much water. Or walking.
    Though the actual occurrence of such happenings are as rare as McDonalds being hit by meteors.

    The guy who carried a rifle into Wally world was perfectly legal. And himself caused no panic. The idiot manager who sounded a fire alarm caused the mass exodus, which the OC carrier obeyed like everyone else until Wyatt the fire fighter drew down on him for NO legal reason , opening himself up to being quite legally shot.

    If we must use over reactions by a store manager and a firefighter to attack OC lets try to keep our facts straight.
     
  7. JimRau

    JimRau Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I have several friends who OC here, but that is completely acceptable here (rural Bamma):). But I do not advocate OC in urban areas, as the element of surprise in a lethal force situation can mean the difference in wining and losing!:eek: But I tell my friends that I like the OC for two reasons:
    1. It desensitizes the 'general public' if done in a casual manner.
    2. If the SHTF the OC people will be the first to be targeted and the first to HAVE TO respond, which give me time to get to cover and assess the situation!;) That said I 10000% SUPPORT THE RIGHT TO DO BOTH WITH OUT A PERMIT! :)
     
  8. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Well-Known Member

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    Duly Noted
     
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  9. Ghost1958

    Ghost1958 Well-Known Member

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    Reasonable opinion.

    I've had my share of being in tedious positions.
    I've not experienced nor read about any OC citizen being targeted first in robberies etc , though may have missed a news report of it. It's a big country.
    Cops, security guards being targeted yes. OC citizen not that I ever experienced or know of.
    JMO the element of surprise is over blown. If it was,such a great advantage all cops would carry concealed.

    My own draw speed is average 1.4 sec concealed, vs a sub second draw to fire OC .
    If I see it coming, im better prepared OC. If not and I'm blindsided getting to my weapon is that much harder CC.

    While OC wont be a deterrent in all occasions, CC is NEVER a deterrent.

    All the above is JMO of course based on my own experience and what I've not been able to find in news reports.

    Personally I just came back from town . I OC at home so I was OC when I went to town.
    Bank. Grocery, Gas station, convenience store, nobody noticed the full size 45 on my hip, said anything or got the vapors.

    They never do. And I've OCed in the most liberal cities my state has to offer with no issues.

    Personally I think everyone should carry whatever weapon they wish in the manner they wish. I will.
     
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  10. TelstaR

    TelstaR Active Member

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    I have been agreeing with you.. I guess you missed it
     
  11. partdeux

    partdeux Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Too funny this came up again today.

    I stopped at a gas station and the guy on the other side of the pump asked about my OC. I started the conversation, because I was interested in his bed cover. It was a substantial in it's construction. Anyway, we had a nice little chat, gave him a brochure to MI Open Carry. He was completely unaware of some of the great things the org has done for ALL carry in the state.

    Carried to the grocery store, gas station, and my favorite sub shop today.
     
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  12. TelstaR

    TelstaR Active Member

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    Is it your belief that the majority of police open carry on their personal time? Its common knowledge that most off duty police in the US conceal their firearms.

    As far as police ( on duty).. don't you think that wearing a police uniform, driving a marked police unit and conducting obvious police business might negate the benefits of concealing a weapon. Everyone already knows they are the police and badguys already perceive the police as a threat. Concealing a weapon would serve no legitimate purpose in this regard.

    really? more than a thousand years ago, concealed weapons is exactly how Asian traders/merchants guilds successfully deterred bandits from attacking caravans. Once members of the caravans began to conceal their weapons and colors, the bandit were no longer confident which caravans were protected and which ones were not. Attacking caravans without obvious guards was no longer a safe method to select their targets. A scholar of the time noted something along the lines of " the potential of secreted weapon often caused uncertainty and angst in the mind of the highwayman.

    The flip side of that coin is that the bandits would tailor their attacks based on the obvious capabilities of the caravan. (visible Archers, pikemen, lancers, swordsman, horseman, numbers and placement of each). By freely projecting how there were armed, where and by what means ( and their number of defenders).. it allowed the bandits to construct a more effective attack. Concealing their weapons and number of defenders helped deter and also mitigate the bandits ability to develop a specialized advantage. By concealing their weapons the bandits did not know who was guarded ( who was not) and had to attack them blind.

    In current times.. some States who have adopted cc in recent years have seen an immediate reduction in crime.

    Generally speaking, the unknown has always been a deterrent
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
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  13. Ghost1958

    Ghost1958 Well-Known Member

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    Where do you find this common knowledge? Do you know most cops in the nation? Neither do I.
    The several dozen I DO know most dont carry at all off duty and the ones that do OC, especially in summer.

    As far as states recently adopting cc, and lower crime rates , anywhere guns can be carried by the citizenry OC or CC normally experience a lower crime rate.

    However on an individual basis a person cc appears,unarmed. There is no deterrent .
    OC can not be a deterrent either to some criminals but as you have experience with the criminal mind, the average criminal is not looking for a fight or resistence. He is looking to get his payday and scoot boots as fast as possible.
    To that criminal an obviously armed person is an incentive to seek greener pastures.
    Personally I carry both ways depending . Sometimes both ways at the same time lol.
     
  14. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Well-Known Member

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    My apologies it sounded like you were saying that no one is writing those articles.
     
  15. TelstaR

    TelstaR Active Member

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    I could have phrased my comment a lot better. I was trying to suggest that the articles are written for very good reasons.
     
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  16. TelstaR

    TelstaR Active Member

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    Where do you find common knowledge? It lives next door to conventional wisdom.

    I am not sure if you are truly skeptical or of skepticism is simply convenient. Either way, you can explore the subject very easily by google which will probably take you to an article at officer.com which relates to officer off duty carry. The information regarding officer off duty carry is quite abundant if you want to look for it. As I said though, its common knowledge.


    if that is the case and oc OR cc contributes to lower crime then how can you say that CC is never a deterrent? The assertions simply does not add up in my opinion. I was speaking to States which adopted CC but not OC. Still, your comments seem to be at odds with each other.

    Many things contribute to a deterrent factor.. not just being armed. Some openly armed people are not imposing or deterring at all. Can OC deter crime?.. sure it can. Does it always?.. nope. The fact that it [can] deter does not negate the other potential perils associated with the fringe mode of carry. If I thought OC would make me safer, I would do it.. I live in a open carry State.

    There is not much common sense or carefully weighing of consequences when it comes to violent crime and violent predatory criminals. What you are saying sounds like a normal persons supposition or speculation as to the inner workings of the criminal mind. That sort of thinking is the first thing you probably need to set aside when attempting to predict the actions of violent predators. You generally profile or predict criminal behavior by comparative data, individual traits and practical experience.. not common sense sensibilities of the law abiding.

    If we are to consider all things being equal, sure... you might be right but rarely is the circumstance [all equal]. Many things can easily overcome a criminals desire to avoid conflict. The bottom line is that the majority of violent criminals accept that resistance is part of the landscape and are rather indifferent to the use for force. Those who feel differently often steal hubcaps, they don't confront people directly.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2020
  17. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Well-Known Member

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    Obviously I don't know every cop in America but I don't know a single cop who open carries off duty
     
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  18. Ghost1958

    Ghost1958 Well-Known Member

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    All of that is your opinion which you are entitled to of course.

    And no criminals do not think like the average person . The average person doesnt commit robberies rapes etc.

    However, and I was in LE also, it is a fact that most, not all, even including most serial killers, criminals look for the weakest appearing victims to prey on.
    With some exceptions they do not want a proteacted struggle nor do they want to risk being killed. If they misjudge a victim many are not hesitant to use violence to subdue a victim, but many will simply abort the attempt if met with serious resistance.

    And most, not all, will not willingly confront an obviously armed person when apparently unarmed grandma is much easier and less dangerous.

    That is simply a fact.

    Again not ALL fall in to that category but most do.
    That is known to LE in general and is as you like to say common knowledge.

    Hence defense gurus and LE urging to not "look like a victim" . You have longer service than I so you know that.

    As to open carry of off duty LEOS. Some depts require an officer to be armed off duty. Many do not.
    As I said before. You dont know all the nations cops or even a tiny percentage of them any more than I do.
    What some LE interweb site populated by mostly young anti armed citizen cops hardly equals common knowledge.

    The cops you know dont OC off duty.
    The ones I knew and know now generally dont even carry off duty.

    If they do it is usually OC .

    Alot I would imagine depends on what region of the country , and if the officer is state, county, or city.

    Now all due respect I'll bow out of this part of the little merry go round we have found ourselves on.

    As to open carry all the " potential peris" folks get the vapors over simply are hugely over blown. Gun grabs of OC are EXTREMELY rare, and happen not as often as concealed carriers being disarmed.

    Not so long ago, concealing a weapon was the mark of a criminal. That's why most states had open carry from early state hood but banned conceal carry.

    In fact concealing a firearm is STILL the preferred carry method of the criminal.

    That said , everyone has the right to carry as they choose. Dont like OC, dont OC. I personally have always availed myself of both methods of carry as needed. Many times doing both at the same time.

    The rub is its nobody's business what method of carry one chooses though some miss no opportunity to try to make it so.
     
  19. Nmwabbit

    Nmwabbit Active Member

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    did i miss your emotional rhetoric regarding the follies of CC?

    as previously mentioned this individual OCs 99% of the time - without incident i might add!
     
  20. Nmwabbit

    Nmwabbit Active Member

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    obviously...so just perhaps out of the singular LE out of the 690K across this land that you know they don't...firm stat to brag about!
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020