[CARNUT1100]

I am purchasing a new pistol shortly for basic club level IPSC shooting. It will be in the standard or lightly modified class, and the shooters I am up against are not world class, so I am not looking for a full race gun, just a nice cheap source of fun.
9mm is the calibre, as anything above that is very hard to get here.
My choices are a 1911 clone or a CZ clone, both made by Norinco.

Any opinions and pro vs. con for the two?

I am leaning towards the 1911 because I like the feel, and all of the custom parts available.
One person at the club already has one, and with a few hundred dollars worth of aftermarket stuff has tuned it into a very competitive gun indeed.

 

[Mark F]

Well, you aren't going to go wrong EITHER WAY. Norinco makes a really good "knock-off" as knock-off go. The bottom line will be up to you, afterall, you're the one shooting it.

 

[vanguard]

my vote is the................1911. i want one so bad.

 

[matt g]

Years ago, before California's "junk gun" ban, a buddy had a Norinco 1911. It was pretty poorly fit. Brand new and right out of the box, there was considerable play between the frame and slide. For a few bucks more you could pick up a Springfield, RIA or Taurus.

 

[Dillinger]

Man, that's almost a loaded hand grenade to jump on. Someone is going to come along and crap all over any advice you get.

Competition shooting is something that you either get into it, or you don't. Once you do, the quest for better never stops. I worked on a rifle last month that, literally, has been through the shop 3 times and the guy has won club tournaments with it in all 3 configurations. Total, he probably has $10K-$12K into the damn thing, and he is still tinkering with it. Now he got a Mike Rock 5R barrel - and there was nothing wrong with the Krieger he had before that..

The nice thing about the 1911 platform is that it has made a comeback and it, literally, has parts everywhere. You can buy a basic platform, and with some very basic gunsmith help, turn it into a fine firearm. The problem is, by the time you do that, you could have bought a weapon that would be at the same exact level without all the extra hassle.

The best BASIC advice I would give you is to see what fits your hand well and what you shoot well with. Then from there I would worry about what you can get and how much you can get it for. A slightly used pistol could be had and modified for less than buying small building up as well, just something to keep in mind.

If you want a vote. CZ makes a great weapon, but I don't know about their Chinese knock offs. The 1911, in my opinion, is THE pistol to own - BAR NONE....

JD

 

[matt g]

The nice thing about the 1911 platform is that it has made a comeback and it, literally, has parts everywhere. You can buy a basic platform, and with some very basic gunsmith help, turn it into a fine firearm. The problem is, by the time you do that, you could have bought a weapon that would be at the same exact level without all the extra hassle.

The problem there is that the slide to frame fit is pretty important and is the most difficult thing to fix on a pistol.

 

[Dillinger]

The problem there is that the slide to frame fit is pretty important and is the most difficult thing to fix on a pistol.

No argument from me there, but that is where you get into a "little" gunsmith work versus a "lot" of gunsmith work.

I can take an upper and lower and make them match up pretty decent in an afternoon, maybe two if it's been awhile ( which it has truthfully ) - but you are going to end up paying the shop for more than a few hours, which is going to lead your bargain priced gun well into the next level of pricing.

I can't honestly see stepping into something like IPSC, even at a local club level, without shopping the used guns that other competitors have in their safes, or buying more of a purpose built gun. I think that buying a "range" gun and trying to turn it into an IPSC model is going to be more expensive and more time consuming than it might be worth.

Some people enjoy the challenge of building things themselves and get off on the achievement. Expense is where it comes back to bite you in the rear end though.

 

[CARNUT1100]

Pretty much everyone at my club shoots standard stuff in the IPSC shoots we do, from Beretta 92, to Browning Hi-Power to base model Glock, Tanfoglio etc. There are even a couple of guys doing it with revolvers.
This is not serious balls-out competition for state championships...just a club of around 70 people who love to go out and burn some powder on a weekend.

Secondhand 1911s are like gold dust here and NOT cheap.
A couple of years ago anything above 9mm/.357 was restricted to black powder and fullbore silhouette only, and anything over .44 was banned. Nearly all the 1911s were handed in with .45 barrels in them, so they are just not easy to come by.

I have had a play with both Norincos, and I like the feel on the CZ, but I think I like the feel on the 1911 better...In a few weeks I will get the chance to shoot it at the range, and one bloke there has a genuine CZ I should be able to shoot also.

The CZ is double action, but has no de-cocker. comes in blue or nickel. I quite like the nickel actually.

The price of a package with a 1911 with 4 magazines and an adjustable rear sight from the USA comes to around $800 Aus or about $550 US.
I can put it on lay-by and pay it off over the summer break when there is no competition ( we break up in early December and come back in early Feb) and have it ready to start the new season...

Also our competition is graded. There are only two guys in A-grade who are shooting full scores in 15 seconds that the rest of the club are doing in 30 seconds. Nobody is touching them any time soon, and there is one guy in the anything goes class with a nice piece running optical sights and so forth.
Everybody else is competing with factory fresh or lightly modified ( adjustable sights, trigger job etc) standard 9mms.
We also do a rimfire class for those without a centrefire handgun, with about 3 or 4 people competing in it.

Pretty much this gun is going to be mostly for fun, and be tweaked and refined over time and also be something I can fiddle with and not worry too much if I stuff something up, as all bits are replaceable easily.

On balance I am leaning towards the 1911 fairly strongly so far...

 

[Mark F]

Pretty much everyone at my club shoots standard stuff in the IPSC shoots we do, from Beretta 92, to Browning Hi-Power to base model Glock, Tanfoglio etc. There are even a couple of guys doing it with revolvers.
This is not serious balls-out competition for state championships...just a club of around 70 people who love to go out and burn some powder on a weekend.

Secondhand 1911s are like gold dust here and NOT cheap.
A couple of years ago anything above 9mm/.357 was restricted to black powder and fullbore silhouette only, and anything over .44 was banned. Nearly all the 1911s were handed in with .45 barrels in them, so they are just not easy to come by.

I have had a play with both Norincos, and I like the feel on the CZ, but I think I like the feel on the 1911 better...In a few weeks I will get the chance to shoot it at the range, and one bloke there has a genuine CZ I should be able to shoot also.

The CZ is double action, but has no de-cocker. comes in blue or nickel. I quite like the nickel actually.

The price of a package with a 1911 with 4 magazines and an adjustable rear sight from the USA comes to around $800 Aus or about $550 US.
I can put it on lay-by and pay it off over the summer break when there is no competition ( we break up in early December and come back in early Feb) and have it ready to start the new season...

Also our competition is graded. There are only two guys in A-grade who are shooting full scores in 15 seconds that the rest of the club are doing in 30 seconds. Nobody is touching them any time soon, and there is one guy in the anything goes class with a nice piece running optical sights and so forth.
Everybody else is competing with factory fresh or lightly modified ( adjustable sights, trigger job etc) standard 9mms.
We also do a rimfire class for those without a centrefire handgun, with about 3 or 4 people competing in it.

Pretty much this gun is going to be mostly for fun, and be tweaked and refined over time and also be something I can fiddle with and not worry too much if I stuff something up, as all bits are replaceable easily.

On balance I am leaning towards the 1911 fairly strongly so far...

My pride & joy:

 

[jeepcreep927]

If you like the feel of the CZ but are concerned about action types, the 75 is offered in a S/A only and a de-cocker model as well. I am awaiting the delivery of my second CZ75B in .40. I love those guns. I like the 1911 too, but not to the extent that some others do. You don't have the after market support that you do with the 1911 platform, but here are some places that can help out if you choose the CZ:

http://www.ghostholster.com

Jim Miossi gun works also specializes in CZ work.

CZ doesn't get the recognition it deserves, but if it keeps the price down, that's okay with me.

 

[Mark F]

CZ's really don't need any "mods" to perform better.

 

[jeepcreep927]

CZ's really don't need any "mods" to perform better.

I absolutely agree. Seems that the 1911 guys have set the standard for adding widgets to their iconic pistols... which were supposed to be the epitomy of masterful handgun design in the first place, but they do it anyhow. Kinda like buying a Honda and souping it up with 15 grand in "accessories", bringing them to a performance level that could have been achieved by just buying something else in the first place and avoiding the add ons.

(I really am not a *****, I just take every opportunity to bust on 1911 guys... )

 

[Mark F]

You can spend big bucks on ANY INTEREST, be it guns, cars, trucks, or whatever. For those that shoot in competition, some acccessories are probably in order. However, for the averagel Joe looking to protect his home & family, any good quality firearm will suffice nicely. I have 100% confidence in my CZ, Ruger, S&W, and Colt pistols that are carefully located throughout my home.

 

[Dillinger]

(I really am not a *****, I just take every opportunity to bust on 1911 guys... )

Show me another handgun with over 100 years of active military service and I would be willing to elevate it up to the same status.... and yet, *looking around* I am still looking...

Big Hugs for Jeep and his "limited" world pistol view.

 

[jeepcreep927]

I have 1911s and Glocks and Smiths along with my CZ's. I just prefer the feel and function of the CZ. Never owned a crappy pistol aside from an early Sigma .40 cal. I was just ribbing about the 1911 thing.

The 1911 has been in active military service for a long time, but after a hundred years, still isn't as widely issued or as widely copied, on a global scale, as the CZ75 which has only been around since, well, 1975.

I'll keep my CZ75, and leave the 1911's to the prima donas (poking JD with a sharp stick )

 

[CARNUT1100]

Looks like I will be getting the 1911...
Will make my final decision though in a few weeks when I get a chance to shoot both...

 

[matt g]

CZ's really don't need any "mods" to perform better.

I absolutely agree. Seems that the 1911 guys have set the standard for adding widgets to their iconic pistols... which were supposed to be the epitomy of masterful handgun design in the first place, but they do it anyhow. Kinda like buying a Honda and souping it up with 15 grand in "accessories", bringing them to a performance level that could have been achieved by just buying something else in the first place and avoiding the add ons.

(I really am not a *****, I just take every opportunity to bust on 1911 guys... )

I didn't add anything to mine before it was stolen.

 

[Dillinger]

the CZ75 which has only been around since, well, 1975.

Exactly. Come and see me about it's longevity, reliability & tradtion in 2070 - I'll give you 5 years of R & D.

I'll keep my CZ75, and leave the 1911's to the prima donas (poking JD with a sharp stick )

*looking down from his 1911 pedestal* I have NO IDEA what you are talking about?

 

[M14sRock]

I think the thing to keep in mind here is that both pistols in question are Chinese copies, NOT the originals.

A trained monkey can detail strip a 1911 variant in about one minute. 1911 parts can be changed as needed, quite easily, even though the Norinco will have forged parts like John Browning intended. Not some MIM crap like most of the vaunted manufacturers are using today. But I digress.

The CZ75 clone does not detail strip as easily, and parts are not as readily available as a 1911.

In a country where having a gun repaired can be a real pain, the ability to repair and service your own pistol is a plus.

If you like the feel of a 1911, it is the pistol for you.

And before anyone flames me for bagging on the CZ75, I bought my first CZ75 in the early 80's and loved it (I'd love to have it back). It was one of the green crinkle finished ones brought it from Canada before the wall came down. And I had a couple of Swiss AT84's and one of the Springfield full sized as well.

 

[CARNUT1100]

I am definately leaning to the 1911 side of the equation.

My intention is to use it as a learning tool as well as a shooting tool.
I want to slowly improve it and practice and hone my skills, and the ready availability of 1911 parts means it is no disaster if I completely stuff something up on it.
A new trigger or hammer or sear is only a phone call away.
Also I want to see just how accurate I can get a cheap chinese gun to be.

There is also a HEAP of info on tuning and improving 1911s out there...