Ok in California but not Oregon

Discussion in 'NFA/Class 3 & FFL Discussion' started by Thumb, Mar 14, 2013.

  1. Thumb

    Thumb New Member

    24
    0
    0
    Let's make this brief and to the point. I was arrested back in 1975 and charged with a misdemeanor(trespassing), did my probation of 6 weekends of community service and the records were sealed.

    20 years later I bought a handgun and got my CCL in California with no problems at all. I moved to Oregon 11 years ago and have applied for a CHL and still waiting 10 months later for it. In the last month, I bought a handgun and a rifle online and when they came into my FFL dealer, I was immediately put on a 1 1/2 month delay. So now I have $2500 worth of guns sitting there that I can't touch.

    My question is why is this happening? I thought California laws were more stringent than Oregon . Oh, just in case you ask, I have not had any incidents with the law at all since 1975 and my name is not a common one.
     
  2. danf_fl

    danf_fl Retired Supporter

    12,360
    31
    48
    Welcome to our Forum. May I suggest that next time you login, stop by our "Introductions" area and say "Hi".

    I do not know the laws of your state, and seeing that my BAR exam expired, I cannot give any legal advice (free or other).

    I can suggest that you review your state statutes. A 45 day delay does seem a little excessive.

    Here is a link to your state statutes: http://www.gunlaws.com/links/linksor.htm
     

  3. vincent

    vincent New Member

    4,123
    0
    0
    Also, in some states there are laws that say they must issue your permit or inform you why it was denied within a specified amount of time. If Oregon is one of them, you may have a legitimate beef...

    Good luck...:cool:
     
  4. Thumb

    Thumb New Member

    24
    0
    0
    Thanks for the response, I'll do some reading. I have been told and have read that Oregon is a "Shall Have" state. I also have read that if the FFL does a check and they do not get back within 3 days that the dealer can hand over the firearm. Thing is that no dealers will do that here.

    Oh, where is the Introductions section, I can't seem to find it?
     
  5. danf_fl

    danf_fl Retired Supporter

    12,360
    31
    48
    Introductions: http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f2/

    Please print and read that FBI fact sheet and high light areas. Your answer (from the federal side) may be in there.

    "The NICS Examiner will provide the FFL with the date of the third business day after the firearm check was initiated. Business days do not include the day the check was initiated, Saturdays, Sundays, and any day state offices in the state of purchase are closed. If the FFL has not received from the NICS a final determination after three business days have elapsed since the delay response, it is within the FFL’s discretion whether or not to transfer the firearm (if state law permits the transfer). If the FFL transfers the firearm, the FFL must mark “No resolution was provided within three business days” on line 21d of the ATF Form 4473. It is recommended the FFL record the date provided in the delay response on which the firearm may be lawfully transferred under federal law if a final determination of proceed or denied is not received from the NICS."
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2013
  6. Thumb

    Thumb New Member

    24
    0
    0
    Yes, I have read that and it does pertain to Oregon. The fact is that the FFL's are intimidated by the State Police who do the background check from what I hear and are afraid there will be repercussions even though the law says they(FFL) are not liable after the 3 days and hand over the firearm.

    My main concern is getting rid of or expunging this sealed record so I never have to worry about it again, or at least know I have nothing to worry about.
     
  7. danf_fl

    danf_fl Retired Supporter

    12,360
    31
    48
    The Oregon State Police can assist you with that.

    Be straight up with them and explain the deal. They can be of great assistance.
     
  8. Thumb

    Thumb New Member

    24
    0
    0
    I have tried contacting them multiple times for about 3 weeks now and have not had a return call as of yet. Maybe they are really busy but I'll keep trying.
     
  9. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

    21,343
    214
    63
    Thumb- water wears away rock by persistence. It is likely that there is something screwed up in your records. Could be as simple of someone checked (or did NOT check) the correct box, and your record is showing as "not clear". You want to get that straight. Be persistent. Try writing, send by mail, return receipt requested. If you cannot get a call or letter returned, contact your STATE senator or congressman for help.
     
  10. Thumb

    Thumb New Member

    24
    0
    0
    Since I'm retired I have a lot of time on my hands and I am a persistent person. I will do everything I can and not let up until I get what I want legally of course.

    I have a feeling that because the record is sealed and they can not find out what exactly is in it is the reason for the delays. Getting the record expunged should take care of that.

    It's just upsetting that I have bought, paid for and waited for the firearm with no reason at all to think it would be denied and this happens especially since I have bought firearms before and passed the check. Grrrrr. :)
     
  11. Thumb

    Thumb New Member

    24
    0
    0
    Did a lot of calling and talking with the OSP and a couple lawyers. Without getting into every detail, I found out that my records were not sealed and it had on there what I was arrested for but that was it. It said misdemeanor trespassing but nothing on what the outcome was and that's what the OSP person told me the delay was. They want to know if I served any jail time and if I did, how much. The reason I was able to buy a gun in California was because they do an FBI check and nothing came up. Both of the lawyers I talked to were able to bring my record up and both said that there should be no problem getting my record expunged. They also said they didn't understand why a misdemeanor charge was of any significance especially one that was 40 years old.

    Well, I hired one lawyer and he is starting the paperwork now which is good but the bad thing is that it may take 3 to 6 months. Yes, I know that's not a long time to get my record clean but if they(Sheriff) would have told me what the problem was instead of saying they could not get into my file this would have already been taken care of and this thread would have never existed. My main concern is that hopefully nothing will be denied before this is taken care of, I've already waited 6 months for the rifle. I will call the OSP on Monday and ask them if there is any way they can delay their decision until I get it taken care of.
     
  12. 1911love

    1911love New Member

    1,488
    0
    0
    I've never heard of a misdemeanor holding anyone up, except domestic violence, which isn't the case. Sounds like political BS and a big PITA for a LAC. Maybe they could direct you towards the nearest black market.
     
  13. walkenbear

    walkenbear New Member

    2
    0
    0
    Hi Thumb,
    Well, Oregon has it's own Brady check type system as you know. It gets it's proceed or no proceed from the FBI NCIS system. If there is incomplete info (no resolution) on your record they put a hold on the transfer. The standard wait time they give is 6 weeks, or 1 1/2 months. Oregon then requests the records from the reporting state, CA in your case, when they get the records they make the determination to proceed or not. I think the 6 week period is to cover their backlog of bad record keeping from other reporting states, and not being able to control how quickly other states respond to their request, I believe these are hard copy records and not just electronic transfers of info, so they take time.
    Now for the good news.
    1. you were not denied. If you were you could get the NCIS denial number and proceed with straightening this out on the federal level and get a NCIS PIN number for the NCIS system to a file that has the correct info.
    2. Oregon OSP will get the records and if all is good you will proceed with your purchase.
    3. Oregon will retain your records for 5 years and you will usually get a quick OK to purchase on any future purchases, good idea to tell your FFL before he calls into the OSP to have them check their research files if they don't get a immediate proceed with sale.
    4. Once the OSP gets your records and all is well I would get that info to the county Sheriff where you are applying for your CHL. Because the OSP will keep those records on file for 5 years they should be able to confirm the info with the Sheriff. That should take care of that.
    5. one other thing you could do is contact the county court where your problem occurred or that had jurisdiction in your case and have them search the dockets for your name and resolution of the case. They may charge you a fee, but get a certified copy for your own records. If your situation was dealt with at the magistrate, local level, and not at the higher court levels (District Court) where felonies are dealt with you won't even show up on their records, have the Court Clerk for that county document that your name doesn't even come up in their District court records (dockets). Get where I am going with this. If in the court records their is no record of you being charged or being found guilty of a felony or other disqualifying item then again that is that. The court that has jurisdiction over felony charges MUST HAVE AND KEEP a record of all felony charges and convictions brought against an individual, period. No court record, no charges = no criminal record = no reason for denial.
    That is something you can do on your end. Like I said a certified copy from the Court that had jurisdiction is all you can really get to prove your side. If it was resolved a the local magistrate level since it was that long ago, most likely no records are there, so don't worry about that local, and magistrate courts cannot judge over felonies they must be remanded to higher court, where complete records ARE kept.

    Also would recommend that you get a copy of your records from the CA dept of public safety, that will tell you exactly what they report to the FBI NCIS system. Usually easy to do certified request letter and a few $'s. Since you have lawyers on the case they should be able to provide you with copies. Nice to have the before and after picture, the after is after the resolution.

    Thmb, What you are victim of is the fact that before about 1980 there were no standards of reporting info to the FBI and every state reported somewhat differently, leading to incomplete and often erroneous information to the FBI, which then later turned into the NCIS computer based system we all know and love today.
    I know this is hard to deal with now, but it is a GOOD thing to get this resolved. Just think what would happen if you used a firearm in self defense and your record was run and came back murky.
    As far as the people at the OSP go, they are not anti-gun ogres out to get you, just caught in the Oregon system, they are actually some really good folks. If you know you are right and a victim of bad record keeping then my advise to you is to stand the high ground, until you get it resolved the way it should have been in the first place.

    I am not a lawyer so I am not giving legal advice, but I have watched Shark, the old TV series. Feel free to disregard the above if you so chose.:D
     
  14. Thumb

    Thumb New Member

    24
    0
    0
    Thanks for all that info, a lot of that my lawyer explained to me so I think I've got it covered. I will also see if I can get before and after documents also just to have in case.
     
  15. danf_fl

    danf_fl Retired Supporter

    12,360
    31
    48
    Good luck to you, and I'm glad we could help some.
     
  16. Thumb

    Thumb New Member

    24
    0
    0
    Here's an update and to me just does not sound right. I asked my lawyer to get me a certified copy of my deposition which is what the OSP and Sheriff want to make their decision and he said he would get it for me and mail it out this Friday. My question is if he was able to get it, why couldn't they? Another totally ironic thing that surprised me was that my wife was able to buy a handgun and she also got her CHL today. Now if it is soooooo important that they know how much time I spent in jail for a misdemeanor, you would think that they would have delayed hers to since she lives with me. If you ask me this is all totally absurd given the circumstances.

    Well, at least I got the ball rolling on clearing it up, it just amazes me that something like this happens.

    Once again, thanks for all the help and info on everything.
     
  17. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

    11,380
    1
    0
    NCIC does not have spouse info. One could be maried to Charlie Manson and that would not delay the NICS check. NCIC has YOUR criminal records, not tax records, not marriage licenses, not utility bills, etc.
     
  18. Thumb

    Thumb New Member

    24
    0
    0
    You may be right on that but what I understood from the FFL gunshop owner that told me that if I get denied, they can come to my house and take all the guns even if they belong to my wife or even guns that I have legally bought before. Of course I told him "From my dead cold hands they will". :)

    Should be getting the certified copy of the dispostion, not deposition in what the OSP first told me they needed, they keep changing what they want. Anyway, if it says what they want to see and my lawyer says it does, I should get the "Proceed" from the BG check. :D
    Oh, he still submitted the expunge papers to the court so that will make it even better for the future too.
     
  19. Mongo

    Mongo Active Member Supporter

    1,549
    10
    38
    You could also check the OFF website. There is a lot of info on Oregon gun laws there. Oregon Firearms Federation
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2013