OIF/OEF vets and those currently serving please read.

Discussion in 'The Club House' started by Ubergopher, Aug 31, 2009.

  1. Ubergopher

    Ubergopher New Member

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    As some of you know Admiral Mullen is having a virtual town hall for Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines to ask questions.

    One of my friends posted a question about a joint combat uniform, which I believe anyone who has deployed in joint operations agrees is a necessity. Here is a link to his video, please rate it and post your comments agreeing with him if you feel he is right, which I do.

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2Dw_E4nfGU]YouTube - Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Question[/ame]
     
  2. WDB

    WDB New Member

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    Uber,
    I understand the concept but also know that those on the ground are trained to identify friendly uniforms. I can say asking a Marine to give up his uniform is a tough sell as they worked hard to wear it. It might make sense to a person in the rear with the gear but to those up front there unit and branch defines them. No offense but fashion in a time of war seems like a truly small issue. At best it would level the stories told in a bar.

    It hasn't been and issue over several wars/conflicts so why would it be an issue now? I'm certain a US Marine, knows an US Army, Navy or Airforce uniform.
     

  3. Ubergopher

    Ubergopher New Member

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    The military right now is much more joint than it ever has been in the past conflict. In my personal experience I was an Airman working for a Sgt Major and our S-6 shop was completely Navy.

    He isn't talking about taking away dress uniforms or the garrison uniforms, those are safe in their own branches. What he (and I agree with 100%) is talking about is uniformity across the board unless required by the mission (like pilots wearing their onsies)
     
  4. Yunus

    Yunus New Member

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    Isn't that saying that a fashion statement is defining them?

    I agree with the one service uniform to at least include one freaking pattern. I mean come on, either choose the tiger stripped Air Force pattern or the more dot matrix Army pattern or whatever just agree on a damn pattern. I think that the different services do have different requirements when it comes to pocket placement/angles and pocket fasteners. Some don't like velcro because of the noise, personally I think its great but I work around jet's so the velcro noise is not even a thought. Different jobs do require different uniforms but the colors can all be the same at least.

    /This only applies to combat uniforms. Service dress uniforms should be a time to show off the individual services colors/uniform.
     
  5. Shihan

    Shihan Active Member Lifetime Supporter

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    When I served in The Marines we were switching to putting name tags above the pockets and that did not sit well. It individualized The Marine. We were Marines and wanted to be thought of as such. We refered to each other as Marine, Devil Dog and Leatherneck never Sgt. Smith or Pfc. Johnson. We are simply Marines.
     
  6. WDB

    WDB New Member

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    I think it still comes down to the mission of the troop, no need to dress a Airforce tech like a front line Marine. Honestly how many AF personel need camo uniforms? Simple different gear for different tasks in the military. Might be as simple as a uniform or as complex as the firearms issued. It is the gear needed to get the job done.
     
  7. WDB

    WDB New Member

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    I still see it as a none issue, I've been in that place in time and had Army troops mix with Marines and never got confused with who was the good guy.
     
  8. Ubergopher

    Ubergopher New Member

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    Air Force.

    I needed one and I'm just a cook, then take a look at the TACPs, PJs, CCTs, Security Forces, SOWT, EOD, the other civil engineer types who deploy with the Army etc etc etc.


    This isn't some idea by us stupid REMFs who've never done anything (which SSgt Taylor isn't) to try and bad ass up. Its a logical idea to promote uniformity in deployed units to prevent one guy from immediately standing out from the others on a dismount in joint ops.

    Would you want your Corpsman, JTAC or other force multiplyer shot first because they stand out because they wear a different uniform than you and stand out?

    To me the only logical solution is one uniform for all in deployed locations.

    EDIT:
    When? Until a few years ago we all wore the BDU/DCUs. It has nothing to do with blue on blue. It has EVERYTHING to do with making it harder for the enemy to differentiate between us.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2009
  9. WDB

    WDB New Member

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    EVERYTHING to do with making it harder for the enemy to differentiate between us? Are you suggesting the "enemy" considers one branch of the military a higher value traget? That is what I read into your post, as I know the military unless your an AF pilot the rest of you are pretty detached from the action. I could be wrong but for the most part you could wear your PJ's to work and the "enemy" would never know.
     
  10. Ubergopher

    Ubergopher New Member

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    Once you remove the human factor and take out emotion. I would say that a units TACP is a much more important target compared to an infantry type because of his skillset. The same can be said for medics, EOD, etc etc. Also I'd be willing to venture an Army guy in a patrol with Marine both wearing their respective uniforms that the Army type would get shot first because he stands out from the rest of the people with him.

    Wrong and right. When I'm on the FOB/Bagram/etc etc I could wear whatever I wanted and they wouldn't know. However when I go outside the wire I want to look like those I'm with. The exact same can be said for the combat arms types too.

    Here is a list of AFSCs and Navy rates that I know of personally being in combat (not just getting your base mortared)

    Services (not just me, but another couple)
    Power Production (generator mechanics)
    TACPs (Tactical Air Control Party)
    CCTs (Combat Controllers)
    PJs (Pararescuemen)
    Both Navy and Air Force EOD
    ENFNs
    Corpsman from the Navy
     
  11. WDB

    WDB New Member

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    "I venture an Army guy in a patrol with Marine both wearing their respective uniforms that the Army type would get shot first because he stands out from the rest of the people with him".

    An "Army guy" mixed in with a Marine troop has has the same chance of survial as the Marines, all are well trained and the hostiles will look for an easy traget. No Marine or Army are easy targets.

    I would say that a units TACP is a much more important target compared to an infantry type because of his skillset. The same can be said for medics, EOD, etc etc

    In the Marines and I excect the Army we don't give different uniforms to any in combat, Everyone has a job to do. Guess you have to be there to understand how it works.

    Hard to express to a AF cook, I respect your service and motor rounds are a good reason to duck and cover. Still not the same as being in the mix. Again different uniforms for different requirements.
     
  12. Ubergopher

    Ubergopher New Member

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    I disagree. Different uniforms make you stand out. I don't like standing out and there situation beyond your control where even perfect SA isn't enough.

    With all due respect, you don't know **** about my service.

    On 21 November 2008 I was driving back to my FOB from another FOB where the day before I saw a small child of about 8 years old burnt on about 50% of his body because of an IED. That image will never leave my mind.

    My vehicle then ran over a pressure plate IED.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    That is the vehicle I was in. If I hit with the front instead of rear tire, I would be dead or crippled right now. Suffice to say, I'm very very lucky. In addition to that one memorable convoy, I have preformed over 100 convoys in eastern Afghanistan about 50 miles from Pakistan.

    Now tell me I haven't been in "the mix". Please.

    Thats exactly what I'm arguing for. THE SAME DAMN UNIFORM FOR EVERYONE IN THE AOR UNLESS THEY HAVE A VALID REASON WHY IT DOESN'T FIT THEIR MISSION.

    An example would be the flight suit for fighter pilots, because of the ejection seats they NEED one piece flight suits so they don't get burned in the gap between the top and bottom.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2009
  13. WDB

    WDB New Member

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    All due respect that isn't a AF transport in the pictures. It's an Army transport, the number next to the wip antena in the second pictrure appears to be and Army designator not Airforce. I could be wrong but it is pretty easy to check.

    Either way do you think that if everyone would be wearing the same unifrom the result/effect would have been different?
     
  14. JiroZero713

    JiroZero713 New Member

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    They are currently getting rid of the Whites and Black uniforms in the navy in favor of a all year uniform.


    I don't like it myself.

    I like tradition and the white uniform on a Navy Person....bah.
     
  15. Robert NC

    Robert NC New Member

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    I must be behind the times, but I thought most of the Combat troops were already wearing Camo pattern uniforms. I went through about 4 iterations of uniforms in 20 years. Never really liked changing from one material or design to another. Snipers pick who they want and will get who they deem more important no matter what the uniform. There have always been rivalry between the uniformed services and always will be. I was proud that my utility uniform was different the Marine, Navy or Air Force that was in a school with me.

    They bitch about how much money the services spend and now they want to change all the uniforms to make everyone look alike!!!!
     
  16. Yunus

    Yunus New Member

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    If I tried to wear a PJ he would probably kick my ass. Which he is trained to do, then he will medically treat me and airlift me to safety because that's the other part of his job.
    USAF PARARESCUE - That Others May Live

    But in general your right, the AF is probably 80% inside the walls support and 20% Pilots, aircrew, TACP (the guys on the ground with the Army/Marines who tell the pilots where to shoot), PJ's(rescue behind the lines guys), Combat Controllers(someone has to be first on the ground at an enemy airfield, its easier to take over a field than build new) and SP's and other outside the wire guys who perform the same missions as the army/marines or any other combat troops.

    I don't think the enemy considers one branch to be of higher value than another. But I can see that if someone is wearing a different uniform and they are the only one in that uniform the enemy might consider them the leader and a higher value target.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2009
  17. TXnorton

    TXnorton New Member

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    My step-daughter is a USAF 2nd LT (Nurse) and is currently stationed at Balad AFB near Baghdad. She wears the new digital camo BDU's.
     
  18. SGT-MILLER

    SGT-MILLER New Member

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    WDB posted:
    I'll just say this:

    WDB, you are out of touch as to what the USAF supports as far as combat operations/convoy operations as concerned. You are trying to call out Uber for possibly fabricating the facts behind the pictures. I am asking you to stop right now, because you are really off the mark, and you don't know what you are talking about. You don't know the military as well as you think.

    In regards to the uniform issue, I think it's a good idea for in-theatre convoy operations. The enemy is smarter than we give them credit for. That has been proven time and time again, and anybody that has read the daily reports while in country can see that. While the person is in garrison, he/she can wear whatever uniform they have earned. During convoy operations/combat operations, the key is to stay alive. Wearing the same uniform across the board will help out with convoy security and survivability of certain key members. I'm not going to go into specific details, because of OPSEC reasons.

    HOWEVER!

    I hope there is not too much emphasis put on uniforms! It would be great to have something that works better for convoy ops, but there are much more pressing issues to be dealt with. There are equipment and supply issues that need to be dealt with right away. I think we are tracking pretty well with what we've been given as far as funds and resources are concerned. Things could be better, but they could be worse.
     
  19. Ubergopher

    Ubergopher New Member

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    I'll adress the changing role of the Air Force when I'm not in class later this afternoon.

    I'm not saying the Joint Combat Uniform will be the end all solution to all problems everywhere in the AOR, but having a consistentm, functional uniform for ALL ground troops in the AOR will be a huge step in the right direction in the type of warfare we're currently engaged in.
     
  20. SGT-MILLER

    SGT-MILLER New Member

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    I agree that the uniform will be a step in the right direction. There are other issues that are higher on the priority list, though. Those issues need to be taken care first. I won't go into specifics because this forum is not the appropriate place to discuss internal USAF issues.