Non Lethal Home Defense

Discussion in 'Training & Safety' started by Stuie, Jan 13, 2009.

  1. Stuie

    Stuie New Member

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    A friend of mine suggested using non lethal shells in the shotgun I am getting for home defense. Wanted your thoughts on it.

    I am getting Mossberg 500
    Here is what I was thinking for loading in it
    http://www.deltaforce.com/catalog/12gaugeammo.html
    http://www.deltaforce.com/catalog/lesslethalammo.html
    1) Blammo Boomers Blank (Let them know this isn't going to end well)
    2) Hornet's Nest
    3) Tri-Dent
    4) Power Punch
    5) Rubber Rocket
    6) Pit Bull (I make it here, they aren't leaving my house vertically)

    Of course another friend during the discussion said load up all with Pit Bull ammo. My concern is coming from my room and stopping an intruder in my house I will inevitably point towards my soon to be baby's room.
     
  2. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    Ew! That post is probably going to get ripped a bit, so you might want to reconsider some of the wording.

    On the subject of home defense, personally & I assume others will agree, there is NO REASON for a Less Lethal solution. Once a person crosses the threshold of YOUR HOME, with intent to rob or harm you or your family, his rights to a fair beat down have been forfeit.

    Now, a shotgun isn't my first choice for home defense, I prefer my pistol because of several reasons. The pistol is easier to acquire a target, it's easier to move from location to location with, it can be retracted to get through doorways and put back out and on target much faster & you have one "bullet" leaving the bore to worry about, not 8 or 10 or 12.

    A shotgun is a good weapon for home defense, but not the best choice in my opinion. Having said that....

    If you choose a shotgun, and you feel you must give the bad guy a fighting chance, one round, in the chamber, of a non lethal ammo like a bean bag round would be ALL that I would comfortably recommend. After that, I would recommend that you think highly of adding some real man stopper rounds behind it, just in case. Some guys like 000 buck, some like birdshot, it's a mixed bag of who likes what.

    You should never, hopefully, be put in a spot where you need to muzzle sweep your future child's location/room. If you do, a scattergun is the last thing you are going to want to be holding, because it's the worst weapon for that scenario, even at a close distance. Hit the guy in the side and some of the shot might go through, or some might rip through his shirt/jacket and carry on their merry way.

    I would suggest taking a look at the lay out of your residence:

    First, light up the outside with bright, motion sensitive lights that will keep the average "burglar" moving on up the street.

    Consider a dog - any dog will make noise if someone from outside his "pack" is coming to the house, even if they will only lick them to death, they will at least alert you, which can be priceless.

    2x2 sticks in all the sliding windows and upgrade to serious deadbolt locks in your exposed and outside doors.

    If your house is a split level, or a two story, keep the family sleeping upstairs if possible, that gives you a staircase for a bottle neck to easily protect from high ground.

    If you have a rambler, take a look at the areas around the windows near the bed rooms. Is there something that you could plant there that would make it painful/much harder to get to the window in question. Holly Bushes are great for that. As is poison ivy - but who wants poison ivy outside their kids window? :rolleyes: Avoid anything "nice" - you don't want a good place to hide, you want something that says "That is going to suck if I go to THAT window, how about THAT one instead".

    Inside the house, consider the layout of the furniture, consider the avenues of approach and retreat. If you have 100 year old Oak and Mahogany piano that would stop a .44 slug, you don't want the bad guy to be able to hide behind it obviously. :D

    On top of those relatively minor things - consider some alarm style noise makers. They can be had at most electronic ( Radio Shack ) style places that just make noise when someone opens a door or window. I believe I read in another thread that you can also get glass breakage ones that make noise as well.

    A good cell phone, that gets reception and is charged up, near your location during the evening hours at all times. And of course a couple of really good, bright ass flashlights never hurt to have, even as a distraction.

    Good luck -

    JD
     

  3. ranger_sxt

    ranger_sxt New Member

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    Your friends are idiots.
     
  4. Stuie

    Stuie New Member

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    Thanks JD, like a said before, I am a newbie and I am here to ask questions and learn.

    First I do have a dog, 25lbs Cocker Spaniel, not a vicious dog, but hell of a loud one. She won't bite, but she let's me know if someone opens an outside door or window. But she stays crated at night.

    Second, I have alarm system installed in the house. But we have been there 2 years and never had it turned on but it does give out chimes for opening exterior doors and windows.

    Third my lay of my house is fairly open but my master is separated from the other two bedrooms. No major obstructions to get behind except the fridge, but at that point I can just shoot through the wall and get them easy.

    Well I guess I will just keep my XDm handy and use my Mossberg strictly for skeet.

    Well JD, if I get ripped because my gun experience is at the very best...essential none in the last 15 years, and before that was only a few weeks of skeet shooting, I guess those people will just show their maturity.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2009
  5. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    I was talking more about the verbage of the post, not the actual knowledge/lack of. The guys here don't like to see things like "I will inevitably point towards my soon to be baby's room". That is a RED FLAG condition that should never arise if planned properly.

    Other than that, so far, it sounds like you are off on the right foot. The dog and the alarm will definitely be a great deterrent, and both will give you adequate warning should the need arise.

    The shotgun is good for home siege defense, but for middle of the night, trying to make sure the baby is okay and the dog is going Ape Sh!t, my first choice would be my 1911 and my flashlight, both of which I keep next to the bed in the small safe.

    JD
     
  6. Stuie

    Stuie New Member

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    Well JD didn't mean to make sound like that, it's just the layout of my house, it's a single level and slightly odd, when I come out of my room and there is an intruder, unless they have entered my office or my baby's room there's a chance that my line of fire puts the bullet, if missed, into my baby's room.

    Does that make more since?

    That's where my concern lies. That's why I was looking at non lethal ammo and a shotgun.

    Would a .40 with JHP be just as effective with lowering the risk?
     
  7. spittinfire

    spittinfire New Member Supporter

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    My question for this is why use anything but lethal force? I do not want to kill anyone and I hope I never have to but if someone comes into my home I don't want to give them the chance to retaliate.
    Your given set up requires 5 shots to be fired before reaching something serious and remember you have to be able to reasonably justify each one of these. I agree with JD, 1 warning shot at most, after that the lead needs to fly. If you're in my house at 2 am and I don't know who you are, you are not welcome and rather then take the chance risking myself and my wife's safety I would prefer to shoot now and ask later.
    I also keep a 45 on my night stand and a shotgun isn't far away, in which I prefer buckshot but a load of birdshot at a distance within a home will make someone think twice.

    Glad to have you here and keep that baby safe!
     
  8. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    That makes MUCH more sense to me, and I assume, the other members here as well.

    What is the construction of the walls like in your home? Standard sheet rock, no insulation on the interior walls? I ask because I have owned houses with and without interior wall insulation and it makes a difference for this discussion, plus I don't remember where you live. :p

    In the future young stuie's room, can you arrange it so that you could put s/he's changing table and perhaps some other "furniture" along the interior wall to minimize over penetration issues? Get the crib over and out of the direct line of fire? Have you considered changing the interior door to a solid wood door like your front door? That would go a long ways towards lessening the risk and is easy to do.

    I believe that a shotgun, with birdshot ( though I don't recall the specific size - Robo will know, as will bkt ) has been proven to be able to be stopped by a double layer of sheetrock, so if you can arrange the room to minimize the threat, and stock your shotty with the aforementioned bird rounds, that might be a good ticket for your specific situation.

    As for the .40 - I carried a .40 for years, a Sig 229. I have tried plenty of rounds against plenty of materials and I can say, pretty solidly, that a .40 S & W will punch through two laters of sheet rock.

    One thing you might consider for the pistol is Glaser Safety Rounds. They are designed to go into a material, like flesh or other dense solid, and disperse energy out, instead of forward, leading to less of a chance for over penetration.

    JD

    I have tried them, and in semi dense material like a watermelon they make a hell of a mess, but I did get some blow out on the back side. I highly doubt a Glaser would exit a human body with enough energy to go through a wall or a solid wood door.
     
  9. Stuie

    Stuie New Member

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    Thanks JD. Well I am in Texas and we don't have insulation in the interior walls, well not in this house.

    Furniture placement is a great tip.

    I don't plan on ever shooting inside my house, but I plan for the worst and hope the best!

    I really appreciate the help JD I will look into those rounds. I may end up keeping a couple of extra magazines, a set for carry, and a set for home defense.
     
  10. Franciscomv

    Franciscomv New Member

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    No law abiding gun owner wants to kill anybody, but in a home invasion the bad guy is NOT going to be resorting to less than lethal weapons.

    A good alarm, a noisy and alert dog, strong locks and a plan in case an intruder breaks in are the first things you should worry about, then find a gun that works well with your plan. I live alone, but in the near future my girlfriend and her eight year old son might move in. I'll have to change my current plan (AKA "anything in the house is fair game") drastically.

    Shotguns are great home defense weapons, especially if your plan is something along the lines of getting all the family members in a room and covering the door. A handgun is better if you're going to move around the house. Having both is ideal. My current choices are a S&W 686 revolver and a Remington 870 shotgun.

    Welcome to the forum!
     
  11. ScottG

    ScottG New Member

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    It's a noble thought to consider using less than lethal force against a criminal in your house in the dark. However, I'd be concerned that you use the ltl, which doesn't stop him, then blast the miscreant with 00 buck, blowing his guts all over your walls. Some anti-gun politician or DA might paint you as an evil SOB for torturing the choir boy with less than lethal then blowing him away. They could say that you obviously thought less than lethal was good enough, but then got bloodthirsty and shot the guy. If you're going to use less than lethal, I wouldn't use anything else. But I wouldn't use less than lethal anyway, nor give a warning shot to someone threatening harm. Well, maybe three warning shots: two to the chest and one to the head....
     
  12. canebrake

    canebrake New Member

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    Non lethal??????????? Just hand them your wallet and wife!

    PHD, think scatter!

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Urban Skeet Anyone?
     
  13. matt g

    matt g New Member Supporter

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    Less lethal is still lethal force. If you're committed to to using lethal force to defend yourself, you really should use fully lethal force. When shooting, you need to do so to eliminate the threat, not to injure and infuriate the threat.

    A center mass shot with 2/0 from a 12 ga. is going to do a lot more to eliminate a threat that pelting them with bean bags will.
     
  14. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    My brother in arms- I need to correct a term you used at the start of your post- you made reference to "non lethal" shotgun ammo. The only true "non-lethal" shotshell is an inert snap cap. ANY shotshell, including beanbag rounds MAY cause death. The term used by law enforcement is LESS LETHAL ammo.

    The problem with using ANY of it is a defense setting is that Less Lethal may also very well be Less Effective. LEOs don't use them for defense- but for offense. Getting the drunk swinging a golf club to lay down. The Hsotage Rescue Team is using buckshot.

    FWIW- and you WILL hear different opinions on this- I DO have a home defense shotgun. It is an unmodified pump shotgun, loaded with #4 birdshot. The MAX range this would be used in defense is probably 15-20 feet. Beyond that, they are outside of the house. For that, I have rifles!:D

    The reason for the weapon and ammo selected- if I am facing a jury- either criminal or civil- after a shooting, I do NOT want a lawyer waving a firearm that looks like it fell out of Rambo's backpack. I would rather be able to say that in the gravest extreme, to defend my family, I had to use a bird gun to stop the bad guy.
     
  15. matt g

    matt g New Member Supporter

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    Words to live by. This is a perfect example of how equipment should follow purpose in the firearms world. It can and will kill and assailant, but at the same time it looks like a normal sporting arm that is loaded with sporting ammo. It's not the most lethal choice, but it's as politically correct as you can get and still defend you family and home.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2009
  16. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    Less lethal is still lethal, just not as much. That sounds a bit off but let me explain. Rubber buckshot/slugs and bean bag rounds can and do cause serious bodily injury (and sometimes death) so they are still considered lethal force. Even a pepper spray shotguns shell could be lethal if used at contact distance. A blank is lethal when pressed against the body.

    If you are going to use a lethal weapon, make sure it is used as intended, Lethally. If you do not want to use lethal force, use a Taser or pepper spray. These are NON-LETHAL.

    For HD use with the possibility of over penetration use 7 1/2 shot. At 10-15 feet it will still be lethal but is far less likely to go through two sheetrock walls (it can but it is far less likely to).

    Aim low. Under stress, people tend to hit high with a shot gun. Aim at the belt buckle or upper legs. If you do hit high, you are still center of mass. If you hit from the knees to the belly button, you will still have a very good chance of putting your adversary down. I am certaily not advocating "shooting them in the legs" as a less lethal option. It is still lethal. A low hit beats a high miss everyday.
     
  17. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    That's a real good point that c3 made. I still like my 1911, but it isn't decked out like a Mall Ninja gun, so I should be okay.

    However, no matter what you take to the fight, it's still always better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6....

    JD
     
  18. Stuie

    Stuie New Member

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    Sorry guys, like I have said before I am new to this. Sorry for the mix up in terminology. Noted.
     
  19. Mark F

    Mark F New Member Supporter

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    I have to agree, a shotgun is good but not the best choice. I have handguns scattered all over my home stratigically placed for fast access. They aren't visible to the casual visitor or dweller but they are there, and condition one ready. Both me and my wife can gain virtually instant access and can spray lead in less than three seconds from almost anywhere in the house.

    I have an 18" pistol grip 12ga. and it's simply too hard to wheeld in most cases especially when there's a number of pistols close at at hand ready to rock.

    When I watch TV, there's a 45ACP only a fraction of a second away.
     
  20. gorknoids

    gorknoids New Member

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    Kill 'em. Wounding an intruder simply gives him more motivation to kill you. Remember, THEY volunteered for the situation, and you were forced into it.