newer guns in general

Discussion in 'General Rifle Discussion' started by meadville, Mar 28, 2011.

  1. meadville

    meadville New Member

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    Without offending anyone,to each their own and all that. There are many firearms on the market these days made using a large array of exotic materials. I'm sure they were designed to function better and probably shoot better. Whatever happened to " function follows form". I was in a gun shop to-day searching the used gun sections and took a walk through the new gun section. So many synthetic stocks,multi colored,thumb holed. Pistols and revolvers multi toned made from materials used in the aerospace industries. I'm old school I guess. The look of a carbon steel Colt, Smith & Wesson from the pre 64 era,worn blue and all,soothes me.The heavy slab of steel, as the old 1911's have been called , a real turn on for me.(I think browning is introducing a 1911 in carbon steel this year and I will certainly be lookin at it.}The newest manufactured gun I own is a 760 Remington {58},even that has a plastic ejection port cover! Wish they would have left it metal.When I need to lift my gun shopping spirit I pull my mod.71 Winchester out and clean it once again. American made with american parts.Just needed to vent a little I guess. Feel free to be critical of my opinion,agree or disagree,would really like to know.Maybe its my age,67
     
  2. Sniper03

    Sniper03 Supporting Member Supporter

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    Meadville,

    I certainly understand your feeling for the older weapons. I know a lot of the new pistols and rifles are very good, shoot well and very reliable. I have several pistols and have carried a Beretta 92-F, 96-F and a Glock Model 22 40 Cal. on duty for a number of years. They were fine pistols. As well as the Glock Model 27 I carry now days for personal protection.
    However, as great as some of them are they have never replaced my fondness for older and crafted quality weapons. It is almost like they have a past history that speaks to me when I inspect hold and shoot one. This very week I added another piece of nostalgia to my collection. It is a Pre 64 Winchester Model 70 in 30-06 Cal. Made in 1950. I mean the rifle is 61 years old and is in 98% condition and a prize. I like the old 98K Mauser's, Springfield 1903 A3s, M-1 Garands S&W Model 27-5, Walther P-38s, 1911 Colts and others as well as all of the older weapons. There is just something about them and their craftsmanship.

    03
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2011

  3. Jesse17

    Jesse17 New Member

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    Welcome to the community!

    You’ll find plenty of firearms knowledge on here, as well as meet plenty of fun loving, people with common sense. :)
     
  4. DrumJunkie

    DrumJunkie New Member

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    Old school aint a bad way to be from where I'm standing. Welcome to the forum. :)
     
  5. 30-30remchester

    30-30remchester New Member

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    MEADVILLE, welcome. It is nice to hear from a like minded soul. Potmetal castings, stamped tin, and plastic guns are all the rage now. I dont own a plastic gun or one that has mystery metal castings. I as well love the feel of finely milled steel and the soothing feel of walnut against my cheek.
     
  6. Wambli

    Wambli New Member

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    Plenty of shiny blue steel and Walnut in my collection and for the most part I love them dearly but the real pretty/old ones only go out in fair weather for short walks in the woods, because I don't see the point of taking out a beautiful custom stocked pre-64 Wincheter to dance in the rain or heavy snow when I have several modern, sub MOA shooters with high tech finishes in carbon fiber stocks that are totally unaffected by the weather to pick from.

    I do like the feel I get from walking around the woods with an early 1900's Winchester 1894 or a Savage 99. My old sporterized '03 brings a smile to my face (though the sucker tips the scales at 9 lbs). But I save those guns for hunting days AFTER I fill my buck tag and I'm just looking for a meat doe kill of opportunity because if I saw the buck of a lifetime 250 yards away and all I had was my iron sighted sporterized Krag with me I'd have to shoot myself with the freakin' relic...
     
  7. Wambli

    Wambli New Member

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    What you are describing is not nessesarily a firearm made out of modern materials but junk. And junk has never been all the rage with anyone. A Tikka T-3 Lite, a Steyr Pro Hunter or a Remington Custom shop AWR are finely engineered firearms crafted of modern material and will outshoot and last as long (or longer) as any old classic wood and steel gun. The AWR costs more than your average pre-64 model 70.

    In the old days, there was plenty of junk put out in wood and steel (plenty of plastic and crappy metals too) and there is SOME junk put out in plastic today but there is MORE good stuff sent out of the gunmaker factories today than at any other point in the past.
     
  8. Hawg

    Hawg New Member

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    I bought a Glock once. GEEEEZ what was I thinkin? I promptly traded the plastic thing off for a good ol 1911. I don't like plastic, synthetic, hi tech, para military or whatever. I don't mind aluminum on a .22 and I have a custom target rifle built on a 1903A3 that wears a laminated stock but it's still wood.:D
     
  9. aandabooks

    aandabooks New Member

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    I'm with you on the old school look. I bought a S&W M&P 15-22 recently and while it is fun to shoot, I would not call it beautiful. I wanted another Savage bolt .22 with a varmint barrel and went with the BV model because I really don't like the looks of the thumbhole stocks.

    Give me a good looking old fashioned gun any day of the week.
     
  10. cpttango30

    cpttango30 New Member

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    Funny I have no stamped tin guns in my safe.

    I do have a 700 with a potmetal bottom I really dislike it but it works and until it breaks it is staying there.

    Sure there are some crap guns today just like there were crap guns 50 years ago.

    Some are even OMG still MADE in the USA. Every single gun I own is MADE in the USA. Even my new fancy plastic Beretta Neos. In Fact my Berretta was made about 50 miles from my house across the Potomac River.

    Things like synthetic stocks are here because they work and they work good. Ergonomics hare playing a huge roll in design today more than every before.

    Not that I like glocks but they did study the ergonomics of the hand when designing them.

    JMB didn't know what Ergonomics when he designed the 1911. He used what felt good to him. Which worked out great.

    Just like stocks with a vertical grip stocks with thumbholes allow for a better more stable grasp on them. Stocks with better ergonomics reduce felt recoil. Materials like kevlar and fiberglass are very stable and very tough they do not suffer from the affects of weather like wood even laminate wood does.

    The AR-15 is a very good looking rifle to me. I also love the classic lines of a pre 64 model 70 and a remington 700.

    I feel that Marlin makes the best lever gun out there.
     
  11. Cory2

    Cory2 New Member

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    Old guns are more than just a gun, they are a work of art. In a day when people put passion into their work. Now they have a machine make the barrel and squirt some plastic into a mold, have another machine and or sweatshop employee slap em together and BAM you have a brand new glock. As for the "you dont find plastic on guns unless they are junk" hey kid guess what, plastic=polymer. If the material is a petroleom product than it is plastic.

    You can still find guns that are hand made and people put their dedicated time and effort into to make good, quality firearms and not to make a buck, but they are few and far between and expensive. Im not trashing modern firearms, they do the job, they go bang when you pull the trigger. But there is an inherent beauty in wood and steel. Sure they are heavy, but thats on purpose so you can use them like a club when you run out of ammo and you wont damage the firearm ;)
     
  12. meadville

    meadville New Member

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    I don't doubt the effectiveness of these changes just nostalgic. And yes I have owned guns made in the USA that were junk,notably a colt .380, bought new about 15 years ago that would not feed properly,slide would not lock open half the time. Sent it back to colt and it came back with the same problems.Had a 94 winchester once {80ish} that would shoot consitentl 12" grops at 50 yards It sold with full disclosure to a new owner for a fraction of what I paid for it. My thinking is,when it comes to guns,more pride was placed in there name in years past.And yes cost cutting was inevitable.A model 70 made the same way as they did in 1960 in 2011 would cost $4,000 or more.
     
  13. Wambli

    Wambli New Member

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    I agree 100%. The issue is the pricepoint at which the masses will buy. Today everyone expects to get a good bolt action between $400-$600 and there is no handfitting and pretty at that pricepoint. For a few dollars more some guys still spring for the wood stocks and blueing.

    Some companies still put pride in their rifles and select nice wood stocks and do some hand fitting in their guns. Kimber and Weatherby are good examples as well as Sako and Beretta. Considering what you buy those guns for (slightly over $1,000) you are actually getting a bargain over what folks where paying for Winchster Model 70's in the 50's (adjusting for inflation etc).

    Kimber in particular makes a very handsome modern version of the old Model 70 and gives you a nice grade of wood to go with it. Here is my personal M84 in 7mm-08:
    [​IMG]
    The rifle sells for a hair over $1,000 and that's not bad considering what you get. Now I happen to really like the combination of matte black metal and pretty wood but Wayne van Zwoll of Guns and Ammo recently wrote about having his own personal 84 profesionally polished and blued and it does look good.

    But all in all I still think a modern made, carbon fiber/fiberglass stocked matte black rifle still looks pretty good when executed well...

    Here is my .35 Whelen bedded into an HS Precission stock sporting one of them newfangled synthetic metal finishes. I just can't see ugly in that picture, specially when I carry that slimed down 7.5 lb rifle in the woods all day... :D
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2011
  14. masterPsmith

    masterPsmith New Member

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    I guess I'm old school also. Most of my guns are good ol blue steel and have organic furniture. Just like some other things in life, they just get better with age..........


    Jim.......
     
  15. Trez

    Trez Well-Known Member

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    Dont feel old.. Im a youngin' and i collect old guns, most are at least 2-3 times my age..... Even my "plastic" rifle is a 1954.
     
  16. cpttango30

    cpttango30 New Member

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    I don't think the machines used make any difference. Today we have computer controlled CNC machines that can and do hold much tighter tolerance's than machines of the past.

    Take the 5 axis Daishin CNC mill. Look at the time it takes that machine to carve out a precise shape. How long would that take a non CNC machine to do that same thing.

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnIvhlKT7SY[/ame]
     
  17. Wambli

    Wambli New Member

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    Excellent point! I submitted a drawing for a reamer for a wildcat we built last year and the specs called for dimensions with 4 numbers after the period. That's 1/10,000th of an inch. In the old days there was a lot of handfitting because the gun manufacturers used to let the tool heads wear down to nubs so the files and stones in the hands of the employees had to make up the difference. Today when a part comes out of the CNC machine all it needs is a quick cleanup and into the gun it goes.
     
  18. jpattersonnh

    jpattersonnh Active Member

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    I still would not trade my smooth as glass Swede hunters for a new rifle. 1943, 1955, 1962. No plastic or composites at all. '94 action, large ring '98 action and small ring '98 acion. Just outstanding. The heaviest trigger is 6 pounds. I love those old 2 stage triggers. They are like a warm woman on a cold night.
     
  19. meadville

    meadville New Member

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    Wambli

    Your photography skills are remarkable and indeed the Kimber to my eyes is beautifull and I'm sure the whelen shoots like a dream a great part due to the synthetic stock. As far as tolerances / cnc machining,I spent most of my working life as a tool grinder making form tools,reamers, step drills, circular form tools, dovetails. The reamers almost always had tolerances of + / - .0002 and the dovetails often had tolerances of + / - .0001 on the drops.Now a single point throw away carbide insert can whiz these tolerances out on a cnc consistently. CNC machinery has greatly reduced the need for cutting tools such as those mentioned. I think I.m getting off the subject! But it all ties in with what guns are to-day.
     
  20. Wambli

    Wambli New Member

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    Thanks for your compliment. I love photography almost as much as I love my guns and my firearms are some of my favorite subjects. I find metal working fascinating and obviously the link to accurate rifles is a big plus. A good friend who unfurtunately just passed away was into hyper accurate bench rigs and he used to toss 4 and 5 decimal point numbers like they were common but he never failed to blow my mind.

    Please don't get me wrong. I love older guns and I have spent tons of hours at the range having fun with some of my old wood and blue steel gals. I just also have a warm spot in my heart for the precission that one gets out of some of the modern synthetic counterparts. It makes me happy to shoot little cluster type groups out of some of the ugly/utilitarian ladies too.