Newb 9mm shooter, grip issues

Discussion in 'Semi-Auto Handguns' started by CZ Newb, Aug 6, 2020.

  1. CZ Newb

    CZ Newb Active Member

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    not to start some flamefest, but finding "competent, experienced, professional" ANYTHING can be a real challenge. bad instruction is way worse than no instruction IMO. Besides which, there are videos showing anything we could possibly need to know.

    Id much rather learn what i can on my own so then at least I start to know what I dont know.

    Ive pretty much been self taught on everything ive learned so far. its worked for 53 years so I guess ill stick with it
     
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  2. TelstaR

    TelstaR Well-Known Member

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    Good luck, that logic sounds like a paradox.

    self taught = untrained
    Untrained often = LIABILITY, RISK or DANGER

    untrained might work out ok when the safety risk is low, danger is relatively low, consequences of failure are low, consequences of error are low or when liability to self and others is deemed low.

    Perhaps there are some people who can figure out scuba diving all on their own but risk regarding personal safety and the potential consequences of error are rather high. I would say that shooting a handgun would fall into a similar category of risk.
     
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  3. CZ Newb

    CZ Newb Active Member

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    that all sounds nice but think of the actuality of the situation. How many gun owners have been professionally "trained".

    how many car drivers have been PROFESSIONALLY trained? Do you count the drivers ed classes we took as being "professional"? No. So in reality you taught yourself to drive

    how any mothers who cook every day were 'trained'??

    Most things in life we learn as we go.

    Okay, it takes some training to get into a 757 and fly to a destination.....then again who taught Wright brothers?

    I dont think plinking at the range is quite as intense as flying a plane or doing brain surgery


    We learn as we go. I dont think one needs a teacher to go and plink at the range. Yeah, if I plan to join a SWAT team ill assume id need some specialized training
     
  4. CZ Newb

    CZ Newb Active Member

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    btw id love to to go some classes such as these type.

    but you go to, say, one of these per year and then you go to the range like 100 times on your own.

    in the end you ARE your own teacher
     
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  5. G66enigma

    G66enigma Well-Known Member Supporter

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    @CZ Newb -- If you ever get the chance, consider one of the following ...

    GunSite Academy. Such as their 3-day GunSite 150 course, or their 5-day GunSite 250 one.

    Thunder Ranch. One of their various Defensive Handgun courses.


    Can ensure you've got the fundamentals down, and helps provide a solid basic knowledge for use of defensive arms in self-defense situations.
     
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  6. PANDEMIC

    PANDEMIC Well-Known Member

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    I never recieved any kind of professional training when I got into guns. It was all self taught. The only time I got some training was when I took my CCW class. But that was more about laws, conceal/open carry, where you can and cannot carry, what to do if you do find yourself in a defensive shooting, what happens afterwards etc etc. The proficiency test was just 50 rounds, and my teacher gave me some pointers on squeezing the trigger not jerking it and what not and that was it.

    But aside from that everything else gun related was all self taught.
     
  7. TelstaR

    TelstaR Well-Known Member

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    Brother... there are not many choices here. You either "wing it" on your own or you received some training from SOMEONE. The world aint perfect and its possible you get a lack luster trainer. Still, it generally falls back to wing it .. or not. I am a proponent of seeking some training. I dont care if it is some guy you pay or some friend, uncle or whatever.. who is squared away and willing to teach you. The bottom line is that a person is the recipient of some training. The subject matter is serious enough and the consequences of error or failure are high enough that it warrants the effort. At least to me it does. Others may feel differently and that is fine. The dude asked so I offered my 2 cents.

    ..again, as I said previously.. we are talking about tasks with a high degree of risk, danger and consequence. I already conceded that [winging it] may work just fine with lesser tasks.

    True.. and there were fatalities associated with those endeavors. In the year 2020 we are not on the cusp of inventing the firearm. Flying in the early 1900s was a little different. How many people in the world could have taught them about flying. In current day USA, there is a firearms training outfit on nearly every corner. Its just not a fair comparison in my estimation

    well ok..

    good luck
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2020
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  8. CZ Newb

    CZ Newb Active Member

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    I appreciate your perspective but I bet over 90% of the people who shoot guns regularly didnt get any real training. Possibly 99% including on this forum.

    What professional training have you had?

    I mean, you do realize we have thousands of pros giving lessons on youtube etc?

    "good luck"?? what am i doing...climbing Mt Everest? sheez

    tell you what, if it makes u sleep better ill look into this class since its like 10 minutes down the road lol

    http://doublehgunsmithing.com/trifold_final.pdf
     
  9. CZ Newb

    CZ Newb Active Member

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    "winging it" doesnt even really come into play.

    One can be a student of the game without having a teacher hold his hand. Thats a far cry from "winging it" lol
     
  10. armoredman

    armoredman Well-Known Member

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    I qualified Expert or Distinguished Expert every year for the last 18 years with my outfit, but as actual combat shooting training goes, it's bare bones minimum. I recently came into a Front Sight membership, and when things calm down and I can do it, I am going to take some of their classes. I started off getting trained by my dad how to shoot, and I have taken the time to educate my son as well as best I can.
     
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  11. G66enigma

    G66enigma Well-Known Member Supporter

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    As many videos and books as exist, there are simply a number of things that can be hard to get right unless a back-and-forth dialog exists with student and trainer. The facts for many of the fundamentals, sure, are relatively easy to show; but the subtle distinctions with feel, balance, timing and such ... that's something else. Haven't seen many good books/vids on these elements, in 25+ years of looking.

    Not saying that training via a trainer is vital, and that capability can't occur without them.

    But it can be your best, quickest way to cut through the chaff and get to the wheat. It shouldn't be discounted as unnecessary.

    If nothing else, a handful of competent trainers can generally quickly evaluate those fundamentals and any minor errors a student shows, correcting the issue(s) so that those errors don't become ingrained into a person's way of doing things.
     
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  12. CZ Newb

    CZ Newb Active Member

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    I just equate it to other things ive learned in my life. Ive played electric lead guitar for over 32 years. no lessons. I also was heavily into golf for a while. Also done bodybuilding, weightlifting on and off for going on 40 years. Raced BMX and jumped bikes as a kid etc.

    Learning is itself a skill. One has to "learn to learn" and that is the opposite of "learned helplessness".

    Shooting a gun into a target is infinitely simpler than trying to hit a ball onto a fairway lol

    A huge advantage with a gun is that you get instant feedback. you either hit the target right or you dont.
     
  13. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Well-Known Member

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    And 90% of the people who shoot guns regularly don't do a good job of it.

    I've had The NRA Basic Handgun Safety course. I've had low light training from my employer. I've been through the EMT-B course. I've had threat assessment and UOF and Critical Incident Reponse training. I e had FOF training. I've had training on how to clear a building. OC/Handcuffing training. and I graduated from the Field Artillery Training Center at Ft. Sill Oklahoma.


    The guys on YouTube can't assess your performance and correct your deficiencies.


    No you're training to defend yourself against someone without violating your local Use Of Force laws.
     
  14. CZ Newb

    CZ Newb Active Member

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    FO
     
  15. Rifling82

    Rifling82 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    She has some big guns
     
  16. kdog

    kdog Active Member

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    I have a Glock 17 and a CZ P10 F. I hate the Glock and hitting with it is really crappy.
    The CZ is much better.

    What I have learned over the past few years is, you will ask a question like yours and you will get 11 different answers from 10 different people.

    Now that said, I will look at it from the German side of it.

    Shooting my Glock at a distance of 7m, I will mostly go directly Bulls Eye, even with a speed reload. Same on the CZ or pretty much any other pistol.

    But when increasing the distance, the problems start.
    So going back to 25m, the Glock will go low left. Very few will go center.
    Taking those hits and transferring them into self defense, you wouldn`t really shoot at 25m in self defense, at least not here in Germany, the bad guy would be severely bleeding if not dead.

    But, starting at close range of approx. 5m to 7m and getting the froups together helps and then increasing the distance bit by bit.

    In terms of grip. Take all these instruction videos linked here and look at one thing:
    Does every single shooter in the video use the exact same grip?

    Mostly yes, but each of them adapt your grip to match their need. And that is what you might try to do.

    Use the grip that is most comfortable for you and wowrks for you. Use the gripstreangth that suits you best and feel comfortable with it.
    Try changing the backstrap on the P10 C and look which one fits best for you and your hands. Maybe try a Talon Grip (I put the black rubber one on my F and love it).
     
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  17. hemiram

    hemiram Member

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    I'm definitely not nearly as good a shooter as I was 30 years ago, when I lived down the street from a range, and shot 2X a week, but I'm not horrible, I do ok shooting a silhouette target at 30 feet or so. I group fairly well. I don't hold a gun with anything like a "death grip" my old messed up hands would make me pay for it if I did. Any gun I own that "limp wrists" is out the door. You will figure out, if you haven't already done so, a grip that works for you. I experimented back in the early '80's with a bunch of different ones and saw little real difference, except in how I liked or disliked them due to comfort. I could always shoot a gun that felt more comfortable to me better than one that didn't.

    The left hand moving around thing you're having is a total mystery to me. I don't see how it's possible with a soft shooting gun like a P-10. I could maybe see it with a small poly .40, but with a 9mm, no way. Have you shot an all steel gun, just to see what it was like? I personally prefer, greatly prefer, all steel guns with hammers. Heavier the better. My favorite shooter of all I have, and I have a lot of 9mm pistols. This thing's slide motion is like glass and has almost no wiggle in it.. And the trigger in SA is fantastic.
    [​IMG]
    Just wondering if more weight would keep your hand steadier?

    Oh, take your mag apart, and make sure it's clean inside and make sure the follower doesn't have any flash on it or rough spots. I"ve had both on new mags/guns and they had issues with keeping the slide open after the last shot.

    Good Luck!
     
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  18. G66enigma

    G66enigma Well-Known Member Supporter

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    ^ Good point.

    I, too, tend to do much better with sidearms that have some heft to them. It can impact comfort while carrying, of course, but at least for me it clearly helps in general accuracy. Most particularly in accuracy of follow-up shots.

    Still takes practice. But heft, alone, makes a noticeable difference for me. Longer barrel/slide length as well. A heavy, stainless guide rod can also help, with sidearms that have simple long rods in them.

    CZ's 75 B is a tad over 36oz and 8.1" OAL. The 75 Compact is a bit over 32oz and roughly the size of the P-10C (26oz). But that weight difference might help.


    @CZ Newb -- As for the gun slipping around in the hand while firing, I'd seriously consider one of the all-metal CZ's. The 75 Series, either the 75 B, the 75 Compact, the P-01 or the D PCR, offers removable grip side panels. Typical grips that can be removed and replaced with any sort of hardwood or G10 type grip one prefers.

    On CZ P-01's when I first got them I soon had hardwood (Ebony) grips made that had custom palm swell shape, smaller leading and trailing edges (for my smaller hands), and 18 LPI checkering. A bit fatter around the middle of the hand, yes, filling the palm area. Yet, no matter how nasty, wet or muddy my hands have ever gotten, those things don't slip in the hand.

    Might be worth acquiring one of the heavier CZ all-metal variants just to get these removable grip panels that you can replace with your own custom checkered wood grips.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2020
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  19. CZ Newb

    CZ Newb Active Member

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    at the moment im not shooting the 9mm much due to the ammo situation. Im shooting my TX22 a lot. Of course its less recoil but im also having some success with the sort of "push with the right hand, pull back with the left hand" method of gripping

    I see dudes shooting with the target style pistols and getting good groups etc and I realize im at a distinct disadvantage with the compact polymers etc but I think it will work out good for me in the end. If I get pretty decent with a compact polymer pistol then ill have no problem with a target pistol or whatever