Newb 9mm shooter, grip issues

Discussion in 'Semi-Auto Handguns' started by CZ Newb, Aug 6, 2020.

  1. SK2344

    SK2344 Active Member

    256
    181
    43
    Well, you are already condemning the trainer before you even get started! If you have a negative attitude going into training, well ........?
     
  2. CZ Newb

    CZ Newb Member

    80
    98
    18
    I appreciate the encouragement

    nice strong left leaning tendency lol.

    Dude beside me on range today was a relative newb but he said he had shot about 6000 rds (on Glock) and everything he was shooting was pretty much low left
     
    PANDEMIC likes this.

  3. CZ Newb

    CZ Newb Member

    80
    98
    18
    thats just reality brother. It comes from 53 years of life and being around "trainers" in several areas (mainly bodybuilding and fitness). Maybe 3 out of 10 are really good, 4 or 5 are average and 2 or 3 are just bad?

    Im just used to being self taught. learning is itself a skill

    That being said Ill for sure search out some training of some sort eventually
     
    Rifling82 and SK2344 like this.
  4. SK2344

    SK2344 Active Member

    256
    181
    43
    Good, you made the right decision and you won't be sorry young man! I'm 76 years old and I believe in Training, then you can try different things on your own after you learn the basics of shooting! It's like any other skill in life. Then all you have to do is practice Practice and more practice! Good Luck!
     
    CZ Newb likes this.
  5. armoredman

    armoredman Well-Known Member

    1,205
    517
    113
    Does your grip look like mine here? This is with the P-10S, (BTW, eCZellenct CZoice in sidearm, my personal EDC is a 1st gen P-10C FDE.) not the Compact - you can see it holstered on my right side though.
     
  6. armoredman

    armoredman Well-Known Member

    1,205
    517
    113
    One of the first mistakes I found new shooters was the classic death grip - "if I don't squeeze hard it will jump out of my hands and someone will get hurt. " However, looking at your targets I see pretty darn good shooting, nothing to worry about. Don't expect target accuracy from a compact carry pistol. Also, have you cleaned under the extractor claw? That little bugger can give you some issues if it gets clogged from many rounds of no cleaning.
     
  7. CZ Newb

    CZ Newb Member

    80
    98
    18
    nah, I think both my thumbs r a bit higher than that. I dont think there is anything in the LOOK of my grip that would stand out as clunky

    I went back to the range yesterday and at one point had a guy look at my grip etc. He happened to be a P10 owner. He suggested I try the larger backstrap and/or not wrapping the right hand around as far (edit) counter clockwise as I had it.

    So I started experimenting with that and I started getting some improvement etc....though I have a ways to go of course.

    Ill shoot some more next week and see what happens
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2020
    towboater and armoredman like this.
  8. armoredman

    armoredman Well-Known Member

    1,205
    517
    113
    If you have bigger hands, yes, the bigger backstrap is certainly a good idea to check in to.
     
    PANDEMIC and CZ Newb like this.
  9. G66enigma

    G66enigma Well-Known Member

    1,549
    2,264
    113
    Congratulations on getting into your first sidearm, by the way. All of us have been there, done that.


    I did a DIY approach to getting competent with my first sidearm, as well. Until I met a couple of buddies who then took me through appropriate introductory training on stance, grip, sighting, trigger control, and the rest.

    Points I had issues with early on that I corrected through learning and training, which might be worth considering in your case -- Stance, Grip/sizing, and Grip technique:

    1. Stance: make it a reasonable "athletic" stance that's balanced and stable. You should be comfortably and repeatably able to aim at what you're shooting at as well as covering a good bit to the left and right of that spot, all without losing your basic balance.

    I mention stance because the body (particularly if new to it all) can attempt to self-adjust for poor balance with respect to aim, and grip technique can suffer. Not that it's likely to be a stance issue, per se, but crappy stance can influence your resulting grip and aim.

    2. Grip circumference: Really, this is a matter of proper fit. Not all hand sizes are tailor-made for a given sidearm's grip circumference. Too big, and your hand might not close around enough of the gun such that you've got a "good" controlled grip on it, simply due to the size of the thing. (I don't know the composite CZ's very well; my experience is with the CZ P-01.)

    In the case of the P-10, try the various replaceable backstraps. You might find a significant difference between, say, the large and the small versions.

    3. Grip grippiness: A lot of guns are made of a material that simply won't provide a rock-solid grip, and/or the checkering or stippling or grooves simply aren't sufficient to allow the hand to hold on reliably without shifting.

    Case in point is the CZ P-01, which I'm very familiar with. Steel, decidedly non-grippy grooves on the frontstrap area of the grip, and a behemoth-sized grip circumference that isn't that friendly for those with smaller hands. Cured the grippiness with 18LPI checkered grip panels; and, though it was still a bit too large for me, the sliding around in my hand ceased at that point.

    Given the P-10's plastic nature, there's not much you can do other than a stippling job to rough-up the surfaces where you grip it. On the frontstrap, the backstrap and the side panels. (Some custom shops might do such things with the P-10, so you should hunt around before contemplating any such alterations.)

    4. Your grip technique: Vital, to get it right. One-handed firing with many sidearms can be problematic if any of the above issues exist. I'm assuming you do a two-handed grip. And there are tried-and-true ways to grip the sidearm. Have someone who knows, ideally a qualified instructor, evaluate your grip technique. It can make a huge difference, even with somewhat-oversized grip circumference and with somewhat less-than-grippy frames.

    There are some Youtube vids that'll provide guidance on grip technique. Here's one:

    Proper Pistol Grip: Handgun Tip | Gunsite Academy Firearms Training @ youtube.




    In the end, you should consider all of the above. Might well be that, even if you're doing all the rest reasonably, the gun's simply too slick of a material, or too large in circumference for your hands. (I have that issue with many full-sized sidearms, including many of the CZ's.) Might simply be a matter of effective grip technique, and that as a newbie you're just not quite using both hands in an effective, supportive fashion. Working with a decent trainer on the fundamentals would be well worth a session, since everything else hinges on those fundamentals being done well.
     
  10. CZ Newb

    CZ Newb Member

    80
    98
    18
    The grip surface on the P10 is super aggressive. it literally hurts the freak out of your palm after a while

    If anything I think ill try the larger backstrap. A guy at the range suggested that maybe I had my right hand fingers too far around the grip. I had been trying to push my hand way up into the beavertail like one is supposed to do but in the process I think i was wrapping the hand a bit too far counter clockwise so that the right wrist was really straight or possibly even slightly bowed. That wrapped the fingers way around but of course then the gun wasnt quite sitting right in the web between the thumb and index finger etc.

    So I moved it back clockwise slightly which put a small back bend in the right wrist and got the gun a little more evenly placed in the web. It did seem to put a slight bit of slack as far as the fingers not being totally glued to the front of the grip....which is why i think ill try the larger backstrap.

    I had been consistently missing slightly to the left even though I know I was aimed dead on. When I moved the grip slightly it pretty much put my groups more centered. So if I had, say, a 4" wide group, it would be 2" wide on both sides as opposed to all being left. That I can live with for the moment.

    Another thing Ill work on is the feel of the trigger. When I try to pull straight back it doesnt feel as good as when i feel sort of like I am pulling "down and back". Or that might just be a way of saying that I have better trigger control when I am way down at the bottom of the trigger which I assume gives better leverage. It just feels much smoother and more consistent when I pull down to the bottom of the trigger whereas if I am a bit higher on the trigger it seems a bit more twitchy and unpredictable
     
  11. PaBushMan

    PaBushMan Well-Known Member

    2,104
    2,801
    113
    You will learn where the trigger is about to break. When i slow fire i use that to my advantage. I guess the term is staging?
     
  12. G66enigma

    G66enigma Well-Known Member

    1,549
    2,264
    113
    Ah, good. Well, that's one potential cause likely eliminated. Not having enough grip in the grip, so to speak, can lead to grip failure under firing, or when the hand's slick with perspiration or air moisture, or blood/mud/etc.

    Yeah, being too small, or too short front-to-rear, can also be a problem.

    Had a Browning BDM back in the '90s, and it's one slim unit, from side to side. Almost too darned thin to fill out the palms and allow the palms to actually help in gripping the gun. I'd estimate it was ~80% gripped simply by front-to-rear pressure on the frontstrap and backstrap, with next to no group coming from the slick side panels. I'd often sought out a vendor that could make custom grip panels with a pronounced palm swell, but never did find one.

    You definitely want the hand comfortably behind the centerline of the gun. Imagine a line straight through the barrel, right out the back of the gun, right through the center of the web of your hand through the center of the wrist and up your forearm. You want the gun aligned more or less in the middle of this line of your hand and arm. As you suggest, you definitely don't want the hand gripped not far enough, or so far around, that the alignment's off-center. (Definitely don't want to be breaking the wrist left or right, either, but that's a wrist issue and not an issue of gripping per se.)

    How it feels is all well and good. But be sure the pull is consistently smooth. You don't want a jerky pull stroke. You also don't want to be pulling in all sorts of directions (ie, with a pronounced downward pull). Won't generally foul up the grip, but a ratty trigger pull can fool with your aim, particularly if it's jerky or pulls the barrel off-line during the pull stroke.

    Every trigger is different. And every trigger has a slightly different feel. Some are somewhat gritty, particularly until they've had many thousands of rounds through them, which eventually smooths-up the sear.

    In the Browning BDM 9mm, I put 10K rounds through it before it seriously smoothed up. At which point, it was about as smooth, grit-free and close to "breaks like glass" as I've experienced in a DA/SA sidearm. At nearly 40K rounds, the trigger pull was almost too light, but it still broke as a surprise, without any grit or choppiness at all.

    In the CZ P-01, at 3Krds, I actually had a professional trigger job done, one that raised the pull-weight of both the DA and the SA pulls. Eliminated 95% of the grittiness and choppiness of the pull, made the break very clean, though pull-weight was a bit higher. Accuracy improved, after the trigger job.

    Pull-weight itself can also negatively impact accuracy. Best example I've got is a Remington 700 .243 rifle, where the factory trigger was too darned heavy, and sightly gritty. Had a Jewell competition trigger installed, which eliminated 100% of the grit, 100% of the choppy pull, and made the break a complete surprise. Accuracy went from ~1-1.25" at 100yds to a ragged cloverleaf, just from the trigger swap. Went from ~2in at 300yds to about 5/8" groups. Amazing impact, that trigger smoothness and crispness.

    No idea how strong the pull-weight is on your particular gun (they can vary from gun to gun, even with the same model). No idea how gritty or choppy your particular trigger is. In time, it'll smooth up as you put thousands of rounds through it. Or, if you decide the pull is detrimental to accuracy, you can always have a trigger job done. I'd just give it time and continue focusing on your fundamentals.


    Good evals, so far. Definitely get a couple of different instructor-types to give their feedback on basic stance, grip and trigger technique. It'll help. Each person might see something slightly different and offer up a useful tip or two.
     
    CZ Newb likes this.
  13. armoredman

    armoredman Well-Known Member

    1,205
    517
    113
    I agree on the very aggressive texturing - oil, blood, sweat - it ain't going nowhere! My first P-10C I used some light sandpaper to "break" the front and back very slightly, and that helped a great deal. The White Nitride felt "better" even though it was the same texturing, and I left it alone. The P-10S I left alone too, feels great.
     
    Rifling82 and CZ Newb like this.
  14. CZ Newb

    CZ Newb Member

    80
    98
    18
    getting a little better.

    Today at the range I didnt think so much about the grip particulars and TBH I probably wasnt gripping that hard. I had worked on dry firing as far as just simply getting used to going to the "wall" of the trigger and then breaking it etc

    Im assuming part of my slipping left hand is just due to not knowing exactly when the gun is going to fire. As my trigger control gets better maybe the grip issues wont be as noticeable

    The 4 corner diamonds are a magazine each at 9 yards. (9 decent stretched out paces for me at 5'8" lol). The center was 9 yds but it was shot much "faster" as in like maybe a shot every 2 seconds or whatever. No conscious regripping or anything, just shooting, getting the sight picture and shooting again etc

    Then I moved it in to 7 yds and shot a 5 shots each into the upper 3 red lines and a full mag into the lower red line. As with the diamonds, the first one was the worst one.

    Its interesting how I shot way better into the vertical red line and its got something to do with actually narrowing the focus more. When you have a smaller, more defined target you concentrate more and are more precise whereas with a larger target you are sort of relaxed more. So obviously I need to learn to focus on smaller more defined areas. for instance instead of trying to just get somewhere inside the diamond, try instead to just hit the bullseye etc

    Only about 3 of these shots really pissed me off. The one flyer at the top just sort of ruins the whole experience for me lol. How the freak does that even happen? Flinched I guess...dunno

    cest la vie. Getting better anyway
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
    armoredman and Rifling82 like this.
  15. Mercator

    Mercator Well-Known Member

    13,102
    2,834
    113
    Slow down and see if pulling the trigger gently gets you back on the bullseye. A common mistake is, once you hit the center, you fell like you “got it”, accelerate the follow ups, and get rough on the trigger.

    For the supporting hand, find the most comfortable position. It is not critical to point your thumb along the frame. Try a cross-thumb grip. As a matter of fact most of the “death grip” effort comes from the supporting hand. The shooting hand fingers may slightly relax, so you have a better control of your trigger finger.

    Limp wristing, don’t worry about it, it’s old wives tales.
     
    Rifling82 and PeeJay1313 like this.
  16. CZ Newb

    CZ Newb Member

    80
    98
    18

    im shooting "slow" all the time lol. "fast" for me right now is still pretty slow. I havent tried to double tap or anything

    Im thinking most of this will sort itself out over the course of a few thousand rounds. I will also continue to resolve to get better and better focused with my targets etc. Im "proud" of todays target but only for today. Just like the last target I posted is not satisfactory any more lol. Todays target is only good for a while. It will have to be better next time

    I just picked a terrible time to get into it, considering ammo cost

    ----

    Some of it is also plan old fashioned muscle memory/muscle learning etc. I noticed my left forearm was getting a bit pumped at the range today.
     
  17. PeeJay1313

    PeeJay1313 Well-Known Member Supporter

    1,579
    2,629
    113
  18. G66enigma

    G66enigma Well-Known Member

    1,549
    2,264
    113
    While grip and trigger control are two different things, they can impact one another. As you say, likely as your trigger technique improves you'll see less issue with your grip. (Assuming it's sized correctly, assuming it's "grippy" enough for your hand, assuming the centerline of your hand is aligned right down the bore axis.)

    Look into the "crush grip" described by Massad Ayoob (from his old StressFire books, IIRC). It's not everyone's cup of tea, but it can illustrate how grip can correct some of the issues you're speaking of.


    Not bad aim, there, for ~7-9yds. As you develop that "muscle memory" and your technique keeps improving, you'll continue to see the groups tighten up.

    Another practice sequence to try: draw a circle around those squares, and then try shooting around the circle, shot by shot. Is challenging, but it can really show whether your techniques and control are resulting in improvements. In time, you can speed up slightly, use smaller (ie 2", or even 1") pasters.


    It all helps, in time. There's a lot of micro-motor control going on with hand position, aim, sighting, trigger technique. And they all need to come together pretty exactingly, in order for stellar accuracy to occur. Even more so, under faster or "pressured" conditions. Be patient, and keep focusing on the fundamentals. In time, you'll see improvements.


    "Flyers" are the bane of shooting, to be sure. Happens to everyone, occasionally. Forget the fundamentals, get excited, get too tense in the muscles, whatever ... and poof! there goes one or two off into (or even off) the "wilds" of the target.
     
    CZ Newb likes this.
  19. TelstaR

    TelstaR Active Member

    307
    240
    43
    Training in person.. that is how I would deal with in. The longer you keep doing things "wrong" the harder it will be to correct. You may even convince yourself that there is no need to correct it.

    Perhaps you are not doing anything wrong, but it sounds like you are. I would get instruction from a competent instructor.
     
    G66enigma likes this.
  20. G66enigma

    G66enigma Well-Known Member

    1,549
    2,264
    113
    ^ Great point, right there.

    "Muscle memory" goes both ways. We get better at what we practice, IOW practice "makes perfect." And if what we're practicing sucks, or won't survive a situation under stress, or will simply compound other aspects of fundamentals, it can be very hard to get rid of.

    It's always good to get a couple of competent, experienced, professional opinions, face-to-face, when up against questions of fundamentals. It's what everything else hinges on, in the end. Need to get those things "right." Once right, it'll largely be ingrained for a lifetime.