Newb 9mm shooter, grip issues

Discussion in 'Semi-Auto Handguns' started by CZ Newb, Aug 6, 2020.

  1. CZ Newb

    CZ Newb Active Member

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    So I just got a CZ P10C about 3 weeks ago. My first gun. Ive got about 600 or 700 rounds thru it so far. obviously i've had to learn from scratch so i've been learning from youtube vids. Been watching vids from carrytrainer, Rob Vogel, Mike Glover etc.

    Overall its going well but there is one major issue I am having and several smaller issues which I think are related:

    1) My left hand will simply NOT stay in place. Essentially every time I shoot, the recoil will make the left hand shift substantially. (shooting 115 and 124 grain ammo like federal, red army standard, blazer etc)

    So that in itself is a major problem. But there are other issues that might help us troubleshoot the root issue.

    2) my slide rarely locks back when I shoot the last bullet. At first I thought I was probably "riding the slide stop" from trying to get my left hand high up on the gun etc, but today I tried some right hand only shots and the slide would still not lock back. I tried it several times by chambering a round and then putting an empty mag in and it would pretty consistently not lock back.

    So that makes me think part of my left hand issues might be caused by the right hand sort of "limp wristing"...even though of course I am trying to lock the wrists firmly etc

    3) accuracy issues. well my first day on the range of course I sort of had the low-left syndrome going. But now im pretty consistently missing a bit high left. My accuracy is getting better and today I finally shot a full magazine into one of the 4ish" diamonds on one of those rifle siting targets from about 8 yds

    A bit about me. Im a 53 yr old male and I grew up doing all the athletic sports stuff. Also I have lifted weights on and off for many years. Though I didnt do much physical exercise stuff in my 40s (lol) I have been back lifting weights solid for over a year now.

    My grip has never been that strong and ive almost always used straps in the gym on back day etc.

    So what does it sound like to you guys? Is this just a normal newb thing where the hands just have to get coordinated to this exact skill etc??

    Though my grip strength has never been my strongest point, I find it hard to believe that basic grip strength is my issue. I see female pros shooting great and they weigh like 150. I find it hard to believe that they have some sort of superhuman strength developed (but I may be wrong lol). Hard to believe that a 215lb guy who lifts weights isnt strong enough to shoot a 9mm without the left hand almost flying off the gun

    Could it be more stance and alignment related? for instance at first i was just doing what seemed natural and it ended up being sort of a Weaver thing with the rt arm straighter and left arm more bent. Im rt eye dominant. I am thinking perhaps this is why I was/am missing to the left more....that perhaps having the gun more on the rt side of my body and using that dominant rt eye is giving me too much of a sideways angle across the target

    I am thinking that the Weaver type setup gives the rt hand and arm some nice straight angles but then the left hand is sort of disadvantaged

    So today I started trying to use a more isosceles setup a little more like Bob Vogel. It did seem to help my accuracy though my left hand still moved around a lot.


    So what to do??? this is pissing me off lol.

    I am attempting to grip like a see in the Vogel vids or Lenny McGill and Carry Trainer vids etc. I have the rt hand as high as possible up under the "beavertail" area. I have tried gripping harder, I have tried torquing the left arm clockwise, I have tried sort of squeezing the arms together using chest strength etc. So far the left hand just moves all over the place.

    Could it be that I am OVERgripping it? or are my hands simply not strong enough yet? perhaps my arms and body are strong enough to really resist the recoil but then the hands and maybe wrists are the weak point??

    I find it hard to believe that all good shooters have brute hand strength though. Is it more of just a coordination thing that takes a few thousand more rounds??


    Thanks for any help
     
  2. schnuffleupagus

    schnuffleupagus Well-Known Member

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    Wow.
    Some first post. I hold my pistol firmly but not a death grip. Squeeze your pistol too hard and your hands will shake.
    It looks like a pretty slick gun.
    Perhaps you are thinking too hard.
    Have you tried wearing gloves? I do not even think about "squeezing" my pecs while shooting.

    Maybe have the Mrs. take a photo of your grip, and post that.

    If you are shooting right handed while right eye dominant, your point of aim should be good.
     
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  3. SK2344

    SK2344 Active Member

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    My advice to you is to seek out a gun trainer in your area and sign up for training/lessons that will be worth the money you will pay. Your local gun shop/range will be able to point you in the right direction or you can go to your local police station and there are some police officers or ex police that give training lessons at a very reasonable price. You seem to need guidance with guns so go for it!
     
  4. CZ Newb

    CZ Newb Active Member

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    I always think too hard....trust me, this was the edited down version lol.

    Then again, the left hand IS moving all over the place...its not my imagination

    Gloves crossed my mind a bit today. it has been hot and humid lately which definitely isnt helping my grip any
     
  5. CZ Newb

    CZ Newb Active Member

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    yeah I am sort of debating that. But its always hit or miss. The old dude that owns the local range told me to put my left hand on TOP of my right thumb lol. I wouldnt want to pay for advice like that
     
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  6. JTJ

    JTJ Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There are quite a few videos and tutorials specifically on proper grip. Some are very good and some are very bad. Stick with names that have a lot of following. Best is a good trainer as it will save a lot of ammo.

     
  7. PANDEMIC

    PANDEMIC Well-Known Member

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    Just a quick question, your not actually dropping a round in the chamber then closing the slide and then putting the empty mag in are you?

    Or are you loading the mag with 1 round, putting it in, rack the slide and then you fire to see if the slide locks back?
     
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  8. PaBushMan

    PaBushMan Well-Known Member

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    Maybe your tensing up to much too? Im relaxed when im shooting for the most part. Firm enough grip yes. But not over kill. I don't lock up my arms. Sorta use them as a shock absorber. Not sure how else to explain it. I been shooting for a long time. Over 40 years. Hand gun over 30. My 1st one was a 44 mag.
     
  9. CZ Newb

    CZ Newb Active Member

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    its interesting in that top vid when he fires around 3:25...his left hand clearly shifts position lol

    yeah I may see if I can find an instructor. In a sense it would be logical for me to find a female instructor (as opposed to a big strong dude) for my exact question because logic says that if she can fire and hold her grip then its more of a technique thing than a brute strength thing

    its interesting though because I have tried several of the things ive seen in the vids and so far the left hand wont hold. it reminds me of when I was a personal trainer and this adult male came in and he literally couldnt do 1 correct pushup and had to strain to curl a 20lb dbell a few times. It wasnt a brute strength thing per se, its just that he had never done much physical stuff before.....just like ive never shot much before
     
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  10. CZ Newb

    CZ Newb Active Member

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    yeah im thinking this is part of it. over thinking, over gripping, over trying perhaps. When ive concentrated on other things such as breathing and rhythm and sort of forgotten about grip, it seemed to go better
     
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  11. CZ Newb

    CZ Newb Active Member

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    dropping a rd in from the top side? uhmm, no lol. I might have an empty mag sitting there. I put in a loaded mag, chamber a rd, take that mag out and put the empty back in.

    Will the slide still lock back that way or am i somehow defeating the lock by doing it that way?

    in any case, even if I lose track of how many rds I have left and shoot till im empty, the slide only rarely locks back. I have assumed it was because i am riding the stop by having the left hand up TOO high but as i said, today I did it with rt hand only and it only worked correctly maybe half the time.
     
  12. PANDEMIC

    PANDEMIC Well-Known Member

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    When your gripping the weapon, are you keeping your fingers and hand away from the slide as you fire? This way you don't accidentally slow the slide's momentum down.
     
  13. CZ Newb

    CZ Newb Active Member

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    AFAIK im not actually touching the slide itself in any meaningful way. Like I said, I recreated the issue a couple times using the rt hand ONLY. I know I have read that people with weaker hands or poor grips etc may actually cause things like stovepipes or even misloads etc since the gun needs to work against the solid resistance of the hands etc.

    Since I recreated the no lockback with the rt hand only, it makes me sort of rule out what i was thinking about having the left hand accidentally riding the slide stop since there was no left hand on the gun period lol. Im thinking the rt hand only grip wasnt giving enough firm resistance for the gun to cycle properly for it to lockback.....and perhaps even when I have 2 hands on it is still maybe not always working properly due to the grip not being solid enough. It seems to work correctly maybe 1/3 of the time

    I did have 1 case today where a rd didnt properly eject. 1st time for that to happen. I cant swear to it but Im pretty sure that was also when shooting with 1 hand (not firm enough for gun to cycle properly etc)

    Im thinking in the end its just that my muscles and nerves just arent used to shooting yet. I mean, it cant be THAT complicated of a thing lol. (I do like to overanalyze)
     
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  14. CZ Newb

    CZ Newb Active Member

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    my target from today. just so we know im not totally clueless. These were all from about 8 yds. Nothing to brag about but then again im not missing the entire target or anything.

    1 mag per target, starting top left and going clockwise and finishing with center target. The flyers on the upper left were probably my first 2 shots.

    The bottom left had only the 2 shots a bit out of the target. The shot thats totally off that target was of course the last shot when the pressure was on. But I then went to the center target and at least got everything inside the lines.

    again, nothing to brag about but this was like my 5th time at the range? I just post that to give context to the questions. Even though I am struggling a bit with my grip im not clueless.

    A few more trips to the range and hopefully ill disclaim this target

    I ask questions to learn and get better
     

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  15. PaBushMan

    PaBushMan Well-Known Member

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    Heck that looks good. Keep practicing before you know it. You will be doing that at 25 yards.
     
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  16. CZ Newb

    CZ Newb Active Member

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    shooting guns may be the thing that makes me break down and get eyeglasses (finally) lol

    25 yrds im shooting at a fuzzy white thing.
     
  17. PaBushMan

    PaBushMan Well-Known Member

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    I had to get glasses to see my sights on some of my guns. Far vision is good.
     
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  18. PANDEMIC

    PANDEMIC Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I was about to ask you more about how your grip actually looks like but damn, that's actually really good from 8 yards.

    I'll tell you what, keep practicing like bushman said, but however your grip is to get that accurate at 8 yards I mean especially those corner targets and groupings (again, that's really good) Try keeping that same grip but try shooting from like 10 yards and then 15 and see if your accuracy/groupings stay the same or changes.

    I mean that could mean your grip is fine, its more practice is probably all you really need.
     
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  19. CZ Newb

    CZ Newb Active Member

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    yeah, hopefully the grip thing just sorts itself out as my hands get more familiar to the task

    one thing I realized I have been doing wrong was related to breathing and squeezing the trigger TOO slowly. a lot of the bad "flyer" shots would be because id breath out and then id take sooo long to align the sights and especially to sssllloowwwllly squeeze the trigger....that id need to breath again and everything would go bad

    So on those last 2 targets (bottom left and center) i started breathing out and raising the gun up in a rhythm and just trusting the sights and squeezing the shot off a little faster and thats how I got my better groups

    hopefully in a while those 7-8yd groups will be quarter sized and ill post todays target up as a joke. or, as u say, my 25 yd will start looking better
     
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  20. PANDEMIC

    PANDEMIC Well-Known Member

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    Don't sweat it too much man, you'll get better at it :) just take your time, shoot when you can and most importantly, enjoy yourself. Try not to overthink it too much. I was worse then you at 8 yards when I was practicing to get my CHL, my groupings weren't anywhere near tight as yours until I learned proper grip and stance and I kept jerking the trigger rather then slowly squezzing it. (Slow is smooth, smooth is fast)

    This is my target from my CHL class, a total of 50 rounds. I had a different pistol at the time and then upgraded to a better one later on but the technique is pretty much the same.

    All the center holes around 10 are from 3 yards.
    Holes around 9 are from 7 yards.
    Holes around 8 and after is from 15 yards.

    aa6250e3bf314ff8e3b926476386ca75.jpg

    And I was practicing on a paper target meant for hunting rifles before my proficiency test lol. which made it imposible to hit at 15 yards. 7 yards I got better at after alot of practice. 3 yards? Psssshhhhhh... I could get good groupings with my eyes closed lol. :D

    But again man, just practice and enjoy it. The more you enjoy it, the more you'll wanna keep shootin'. :p

    And I think I did pretty good even for the 15 yards, because I practiced on a small target meant for hunting rifles with alot of rounds and missed all of them. But on a bigger human sized target, nailed it! :D

    You did even better then I did with those tight groupings on those corner targets from 8 yards.

    I could only hit center mass at 8 yards. The tight groupings on the corners, hmmm maybe but its a probably a no lol. :p
     
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