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It appears that everyone is on the same page on this thread, at least for the most part. Forcing a private business or publicly held business to sell certain things is dictatorial which is exactly what the BOR's seeks to prevent. I live in a place with guns in it. Some of the guns came with a lock on a cable thingy that have never even been unlocked and put on the gun it came with. It won't be as it's only my wife and I that live here. I secure my guns differently...my way. Stupidity has no bounds. I'd rather elected politicians be productive in better ways and some of them to not be politicians. VOTE.
 

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Discussion Starter · #42 ·
Maybe i am missing something, how could making stores have locks / safes put them out of business. From what i can see they could have one cheap safe and a few locks to comply. Having black powder in approved containers would just be common sense IMO, I would guess there are thousands of potentially dangerous materials that have to by law be stored and transported in approved containers why would black powder be any different.
THIS regulation itself isn't going to put anyone out of business, but now stack another reg on, then another, then another.

What happens when/if the government decides that lock boxes aren't enough, the gun shop must also have full size safes available? That's some expensive inventory and it takes up a lot of floor space. I have several gun shops in my area that literally, if they had to put safes on the store floor, they will lose a sizable chunk of their shelf/retail space. Not every gun shop is the size of a super Walmart. Speculation? Sure, but given history, certainly not unfounded.

Instead of telling us what you don't see, explain to us why you think it's ok or logical for the government to mandate a business to carry a certain product that is already widely available elsewhere?
 

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Instead of telling us what you don't see, explain to us why you think it's ok or logical for the government to mandate a business to carry a certain product that is already widely available elsewhere?
I said earlier i don't see it making any difference one way or another in gun safety or gun crime. You do have to store firearms in a gun safe here, but dealers do not have to have or sell them. My point was i don't see it putting any dealers out of business, not that it made any sense.
 

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Discussion Starter · #44 ·
Right, and also as explained, this one reg won't put anyone out of business, we all agree on that. It's not one single reg, per se that's at issue, it's the government mandating it, period. I'm not aware of any other items that the government mandates certain retailers must make available in their stores (doesn't mean there aren't, I'm just not aware of any).

Manufacturers, however, do have various requirements if a retailer wishes to be a distributor. This is common, but a retailer has 100% leeway to either become a distributor or not.

It's no different than if you owned a bakery and the government steps in and says you must make baking accessories available in your shop. Are pots, pans, and such in line with baking, sure, but as a bakery, that's not what you're doing, you're selling baked goods, not trying to help customers bake their own. Besides, there are literally thousands, if not millions, of stores where one can go buy pots and pans, etc. There is no logical or reasonable cause to force a bakery to sell those things. Could you if you wanted to? Sure, but it's freakin over reach by the government to force you to make those items available against your will.

It's the principle, not the particular mandate itself. This is exactly the sort of thing we see the government doing when it comes to firearms across the country. It is absolutely aimed at making owning and running a gun shop more of a pain in the wazoo. Of course, like every single onerous mandate and law created around firearms, it is always foisted upon us for our "safety", yet very few of these mandates or laws do a single thing to curb violence or crime. They literally only hurt the law abiding. They force us to pay for, or to ask permission, or require us to jump through all manner of red tape hoops to exercise a right enumerated in our constitution or to conduct business on the same playing field as any other legitimate retail business.

It's wrong, it's tyrannical, and simply another indicator of how our government views we the people.
 

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Right, and also as explained, this one reg won't put anyone out of business, we all agree on that. It's not one single reg, per se that's at issue, it's the government mandating it, period. I'm not aware of any other items that the government mandates certain retailers must make available in their stores (doesn't mean there aren't, I'm just not aware of any).

Manufacturers, however, do have various requirements if a retailer wishes to be a distributor. This is common, but a retailer has 100% leeway to either become a distributor or not.

It's no different than if you owned a bakery and the government steps in and says you must make baking accessories available in your shop. Are pots, pans, and such in line with baking, sure, but as a bakery, that's not what you're doing, you're selling baked goods, not trying to help customers bake their own. Besides, there are literally thousands, if not millions, of stores where one can go buy pots and pans, etc. There is no logical or reasonable cause to force a bakery to sell those things. Could you if you wanted to? Sure, but it's freakin over reach by the government to force you to make those items available against your will.

It's the principle, not the particular mandate itself. This is exactly the sort of thing we see the government doing when it comes to firearms across the country. It is absolutely aimed at making owning and running a gun shop more of a pain in the wazoo. Of course, like every single onerous mandate and law created around firearms, it is always foisted upon us for our "safety", yet very few of these mandates or laws do a single thing to curb violence or crime. They literally only hurt the law abiding. They force us to pay for, or to ask permission, or require us to jump through all manner of red tape hoops to exercise a right enumerated in our constitution or to conduct business on the same playing field as any other legitimate retail business.

It's wrong, it's tyrannical, and simply another indicator of how our government views we the people.
Two things. The SCOTUS has ruled that bakeries that make wedding cakes must make them for gay couples regardless of the owner's religious beliefs. That ruling, I think, has even been appealed to no avail. That sucks, I HAVE to do work for you......BS on that. I remember signs all over the place in private businesses saying "We reserve the right to refuse to do business with anyone". No longer.

Second thing....UPS just delivered some primers to me. I know they are designated as hazardous BUT I have never seen printed on the box, the ENTIRE detailed list of packaging regulations the seller had to comply with to ship me the primers right down to the kind of tape on the bottom, how many strips of tape must be applied, the labeling, the kind of filler in the box and how much in the box (they didn't use that kind but the box had a lot of packing paper filler), and details down to the gnat's behind. I mean detailed.

So, I think it would have been difficult to send anything via UPS in a sloppy box (UPS won't take them) but all these mandatory regulations were written by a department of a thousand or so of federal bureaucrats that took them two years to do, and I had to pay for what was actually too much tape and filler for a box of primers. I get it that they might be hazardous but I'm challenged to see how a box of a thousand primers can be made to detonate all at once in a lighter taped corrugated paper box. They would not have packaged it much differently without regulations. Every single regulation has a cost monetarily and with a control factor.

The woman that refused to bake the wedding cake sold or shut down her business, can't remember which but she held to her faith. Now THAT is intrusion. We have ancestors that have fought and died for religious freedom which is THE reason the USA exists. Our ancestors were prohibited from meeting and praying privately. We have devolved into a similar state. VOTE!!
 

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Two things. The SCOTUS has ruled that bakeries that make wedding cakes must make them for gay couples regardless of the owner's religious beliefs. That ruling, I think, has even been appealed to no avail. That sucks, I HAVE to do work for you......BS on that. I remember signs all over the place in private businesses saying "We reserve the right to refuse to do business with anyone". No longer.
We had a similar gay cake case here, the UK supreme court ruled in favour of the bakery owners.

The Christian owners of a Northern Ireland bakery have won their appeal in the so-called "gay cake" discrimination case.
The UK's highest court ruled that Ashers bakery's refusal to make a cake with a slogan supporting same-sex marriage was not discriminatory.
The five justices on the Supreme Court were unanimous in their judgement.
 

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Discussion Starter · #47 ·
Two things. The SCOTUS has ruled that bakeries that make wedding cakes must make them for gay couples regardless of the owner's religious beliefs. That ruling, I think, has even been appealed to no avail. That sucks, I HAVE to do work for you......BS on that. I remember signs all over the place in private businesses saying "We reserve the right to refuse to do business with anyone". No longer.

Second thing....UPS just delivered some primers to me. I know they are designated as hazardous BUT I have never seen printed on the box, the ENTIRE detailed list of packaging regulations the seller had to comply with to ship me the primers right down to the kind of tape on the bottom, how many strips of tape must be applied, the labeling, the kind of filler in the box and how much in the box (they didn't use that kind but the box had a lot of packing paper filler), and details down to the gnat's behind. I mean detailed.

So, I think it would have been difficult to send anything via UPS in a sloppy box (UPS won't take them) but all these mandatory regulations were written by a department of a thousand or so of federal bureaucrats that took them two years to do, and I had to pay for what was actually too much tape and filler for a box of primers. I get it that they might be hazardous but I'm challenged to see how a box of a thousand primers can be made to detonate all at once in a lighter taped corrugated paper box. They would not have packaged it much differently without regulations. Every single regulation has a cost monetarily and with a control factor.

The woman that refused to bake the wedding cake sold or shut down her business, can't remember which but she held to her faith. Now THAT is intrusion. We have ancestors that have fought and died for religious freedom which is THE reason the USA exists. Our ancestors were prohibited from meeting and praying privately. We have devolved into a similar state. VOTE!!
Um, as far as I know, the SCOTUS ruled in favor of the baker, unless we're talking a different baker?

"In Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, the U.S. Supreme Court held on June 4, 2018, that the Colorado Civil Rights Commission had violated the state's constitutional obligation to treat religious expression neutrally when it showed religious hostility in an anti-discrimination case involving a baker who refused on religious grounds to make a wedding cake for a same-sex couple. The court reversed the commission's decision requiring the bakery to provide wedding cakes to same-sex couples but did not rule on the broader constitutional questions of freedom of religion and anti-discrimination. "
 

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There are many things mandated by the government that retailers must comply with. The cost is not on the retailer it’s on the consumer. Handicap bathrooms, fire suppression systems and such are mandated by the government and we pay for them in the end price of the products we buy. In some jurisdictions. If someone can identify a safety issue it’s only a matter of time till some bureaucrat mandates his idea to fix it.

In certain states bars may be open on Sunday but only if they sell food. Is this not forcing a business to sell a product they may not want to sell? I think there are probably many nonsensical regulations that can be said to be in the interest of public safety. Honestly in some of these nanny states I’m surprised you’re not mandated to wear a safety helmet in a grocery store. Who knows how many were injured by canned goods falling on their heads.
 

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Um, as far as I know, the SCOTUS ruled in favor of the baker, unless we're talking a different baker?

"In Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, the U.S. Supreme Court held on June 4, 2018, that the Colorado Civil Rights Commission had violated the state's constitutional obligation to treat religious expression neutrally when it showed religious hostility in an anti-discrimination case involving a baker who refused on religious grounds to make a wedding cake for a same-sex couple. The court reversed the commission's decision requiring the bakery to provide wedding cakes to same-sex couples but did not rule on the broader constitutional questions of freedom of religion and anti-discrimination. "
Well, I've been wrong before, so this wouldn't be the first time. Regardless, the govt. hassled this woman over something that is none of their business. They don't own her business, she does and I hope you're right and I'm not. (y)
 

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Discussion Starter · #50 · (Edited)
There are many things mandated by the government that retailers must comply with. The cost is not on the retailer it’s on the consumer. Handicap bathrooms, fire suppression systems and such are mandated by the government and we pay for them in the end price of the products we buy. In some jurisdictions. If someone can identify a safety issue it’s only a matter of time till some bureaucrat mandates his idea to fix it.

In certain states bars may be open on Sunday but only if they sell food. Is this not forcing a business to sell a product they may not want to sell? I think there are probably many nonsensical regulations that can be said to be in the interest of public safety. Honestly in some of these nanny states I’m surprised you’re not mandated to wear a safety helmet in a grocery store. Who knows how many were injured by canned goods falling on their heads.
Many of those requirements are legitimately for public safety. But, it's an apples and oranges comparison in this case. Customer's can't run somewhere else to grab a fire suppression system if they're trapped in a burning store. However, they absolutely can go to many other stores to buy a lock box or a safe if they want one (or even order them online).

As for the Sunday thing, no it is not forcing them to because they aren't forced to be open on Sunday to begin with. They have to comply only if they want to be open on Sunday...they do have a choice. It's no different than a manufacturer requiring a retailer sell their product at a given price, or not to reduce it below a certain price. The retailer doesn't have to sell a manufacturer's product if they don't agree with the manufacturer's rules.

Like I said, if lock boxes and safes were a scarce commodity, there might be a legitimate argument here, however, as we know, that is just not the case. Hell, right here in my little neck of the woods, I literally have 7 retail stores within 15-20 minutes of my rural home that I can go get any one of a number of sizes and styles of lock boxes or safes, 7 days a week. There is no legitimate nor logical reason to force any of the gun shops to sell them too.
 

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Interesting how it went to the wedding cake case, from a requirement to sell what every shop I have been to, already sells. Hell, most of the small ones get the locks from local PD, or the NSSF directly, and give them away, or buy lockable cases in bulk, to do the same.

It's smart business practices IMHO. Not doing so would be like my shop not offering helmets, when we repair, or sell a bike, as some are required in PA, to wear them, and all must wear one in NY.

But I do see the rub here. It's one more mandate, on top of every other federal, state, and local one the shops already have to deal with. One more uptick in price to the customer, and, if a shop is small enough, less space for higher volume selling items, that could mean relocating, to make room for the bulky, slower selling items (let's be honest here. A new gun safe and loco boxes tend to be planned purchases, not impulse buys, sonthey rens to sit more often than not.)

On the wedding cake deal, as it came up, diplomacy would have prevented that whole shot show. Refusal based on the owner's religion, while true, started.the whole issue, that led to a court case.

Had they said, I'm sorry guys, but we are all booked up at that time, but, this shop locates in/at ____, may be able to help you out., there would have been no issue taken. Theredore, no case, as it would not have been as easy to prove discrimination.

Frankly, I would have made the cake myself, if they were sent by a competitor. Because what two people do, and who they love, is between them, so long as it's legal, and not hurting anyone else.

And I felt that way.long before I started being discriminated against, due to losing a leg. (Try finding an upper apartment as an amputee. Most landlords flat out refuse you, citing their insurance as the reason why. Hence still looking, with no lowers open at the time. And that is even with the prosthetic. )

Not saying don't stand by your beliefs, but in this case, that kind of runs counter to "love one another" as a teaching in that big book so many put stock into.
 

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Discussion Starter · #52 ·
Valid points on many things, but sometimes I try not to get into the weeds too much, or try not to judge someone and instead, I consider the country and the ideals that built it. As the saying goes: "I don't necessarily agree with what you say, but I'll fight to the death to protect your right to say it."

I typically refuse to get into arguments on religion, or what the Bible says (because it is contradictory in many cases). Instead, my view is simple enough: a business has or should have the right, to refuse service to anyone they wish. I agree with that idea simply because a business that treats customers poorly most likely won't survive. While word of mouth can help a business, it is equally sharp on the other side of the blade.
 

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Customer's can't run somewhere else to grab a fire suppression system if they're trapped in a burning store.
The locked gun is the same as a fire prevention system for lots of people.

As for the Sunday thing, no it is not forcing them to because they aren't forced to be open on Sunday to begin with.
Its forcing them to comply if they want to make sales on Sunday, sounds like the same thing to me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #54 ·
It's not. They have the choice to close on Sunday or comply and open on Sunday.

If they were mandated to be open on Sunday, then it would be the same thing.
 

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Under the new rule, federally approved gun sellers will be required to have gun storage or safety devices available onsite for potential buyers as required by the Gun Control Act.

The last couple of new guns I bought, came with locks, so they are covered on those. Then they just have to have a few locks in the store to be compliant, and we all know nobody will want to take a lock, so they spend a few bucks and then set for a long time.
 

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Many of those requirements are legitimately for public safety.
Accidental gunshot deaths by children handling a gun jumped 31% during the start of the COVID-19 pandemic compared to a year earlier, new data shows.
There were 98 deaths that resulted from unintentional shootings by children from March through December 2019 compared to 128 over that same period in 2020, research by the advocacy group Everytown for Gun Safety shows.

And the trend continues to worsen during the pandemic, the groups says.

So far, in 2021 there have been at least 259 unintentional shootings by children, resulting in 104 deaths and 168 injuries nationally, according to the group's #NotAnAccident Index. Everytown is a U.S. nonprofit that advocates for gun control.
 

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Now we have a butt load of new gun buyers (probably getting ready for the civil war) and they might need to be reminded of gun safety. I don't think a $3 lock will break the bank and drive a gun seller out of business, and like mentioned before, the cost will be passed along to the buyer.
 

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Accidental gunshot deaths by children handling a gun jumped 31% during the start of the COVID-19 pandemic compared to a year earlier, new data shows.
There were 98 deaths that resulted from unintentional shootings by children from March through December 2019 compared to 128 over that same period in 2020, research by the advocacy group Everytown for Gun Safety shows.

And the trend continues to worsen during the pandemic, the groups says.

So far, in 2021 there have been at least 259 unintentional shootings by children, resulting in 104 deaths and 168 injuries nationally, according to the group's #NotAnAccident Index. Everytown is a U.S. nonprofit that advocates for gun control.
I wonder if they include 14 yo gang bangers in they’re research? I mean it really doesn’t matter what gun stores sell in the name of safety when kids in Chicago can buy guns on a street corner. Anyway I would never waste my time reading anything Everytown puts out.
 
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