New Mossberg 500, 410 Bore and 1st test

Discussion in 'General Shotgun Discussion' started by OldYeager, Oct 25, 2009.

  1. OldYeager

    OldYeager New Member

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    I have finally gotten a chance to fire a few rounds from my new Mossberg 500 Pump Shotgun in 410 bore. I think it is a keeper. Since I have a few close neighbors (rural property), I don't want to overdo gunfire here. But we all pop off a few rounds out here in the sticks from time to time. I was anxious to see what Home Defence rounds and patterns were with the gun. So I test fired a Federal 1/4 oz Slug at a milk jug sitting in front of a dirt berm. Also fired a 000 buck (3-ball) round too. I measured off the distance at 50 yards.

    Since I was unsure of the drop, I held the sights just above the top of the jug. The slug hit at point of aim, just clearing the top of the jug. Next I fired a 000 Buckshot 3-Baller (2 1/2 inch shell) and held sight dead center of jug. I could see that the jug was hit as water splattered upwards. Closer inspection showed a single ball hit left center and split off the left side of the jug. Then there was one hit in the dirt about 8 inches right of jug center and another hit in the dirt about 13 inches left of jug center. This is with a Bead sight and the little midpost alignment sight on the gun.

    Whenever I can get out to an open field, I might be able to do a better target test. :)
     
  2. OldYeager

    OldYeager New Member

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    Another Busted Milk Jug

    I had another empty milk jug on hand, so I decided to give the new 410 shotgun another slug test. This time I measured off 40 yards for the test. Seems a lot of info that I have turned up on Slugs and Buckshot effectiveness show that many claim 40 yards is about maximum consistant range. So this shot was made at 40 yards. I 'Splodded' the milkjug with 1st shot. :D

    So I'm pretty happy with the slug results. I had been looking at buying a lever action in 357 Mag for rural home and barn defence. But now, I might reconsider. The 410 pump will hold 6 rounds, and deliver 357 mag energy out to about 50 yards or so. Maybe there is no need to spend the $500 on a new 357 rifle.

    (added Info thru Edit) Just dug out the expanded slug from the dirt berm. The diameter of the 1/4 oz 410 slug had mushrooned to 0.75 inch. I think it did most of the expansion inside the water filled milk jug, as it had lodged only 5 inches deep into the wet dirt. This light weight slug may be ok for broadside heart/lung shot, but may lack penetration for quartering shots. I'm speaking here of 4-legged critters, pigs, coyotes, etc. IMHO
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2009

  3. IGETEVEN

    IGETEVEN New Member

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    Welcome to the light, the shotty force is strong among us. :)

    Jack
     
  4. OlPainless

    OlPainless New Member

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    Wow, if you can hit a jug at 50 yards with buckshot of any size from a 410, or any other gauge for that matter, that's pretty gd impressive. Or pretty gd lucky (no offense intended).

    Keep up the good work.
     
  5. OldYeager

    OldYeager New Member

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    Info on other 410 tests and comparisons

    I found some interesting info on a google search. An article from a sporting magazine. Seems the author was trying to answer the question of whether shooting slugs or buckshot from the little 410 was worth considering. The tests they ran are documented and pretty interesting as far as accuracy goes. Most of the slugs they tried shot within about a 2 inch to 6 inch pattern at 50 yards bench rest and good sights. Also, a test comparison between 410 buckshot and 12 ga buckshot showed almost identical penetration into pine boards. Only the 410 has lots fewer pellets. The writer did say the accuracy of the little 3 baller buckshot shell surprised him. Said the shot stayed close to center of aim, while 12 ga shot spread out.

    Here is the link to article > The .410 slug capable or comical?
    by C. Rodney James

    The .410 slug capable or comical? | Guns Magazine | Find Articles at BNET

    Note: The writer goes on to say many who use the 410 with slugs use it as a rifle with accurately aimed shots.
     
  6. spittinfire

    spittinfire New Member Supporter

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    I've been eyeing that very gun just to play with but haven't been able to pick it up yet. Glad to hear it's working well for you!
     
  7. OldYeager

    OldYeager New Member

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    Some additional info on 410 Slugs

    I have enjoyed doing a bit of Googling on 410 stuff after I bought my new 410 pump shotgun. I have a new link to another 410 slug test. Seems other people also have found the 410 slug accuracy to be within 3 inches at around 50 yards. And also I read of a test done with 410 triple ought buck (3 balls) and their experience also showed that the 3 inline balls hit close together near point of aim.

    Link here > 410 shotguns | 410 shot gun ammo | smallbore shotgun info - 410 Ammo

    Here is an excerpt from linked article >

    Federal Slug Review
    So I bought a box of Federal 2.5" slugs for my shotgun just to give them a try. It is always better to try different slugs in your shotgun so that you can find which brand flies true. These slugs are 1/4 ounce 109 grain rifled slugs that can be purchased in boxes of 15 rounds for $11.00 at most sporting goods stores - or Buy Federal Ammo HERE
    I loaded all of my gear: Shotgun, range box, target boards and some paper targets and headed for the range. When we arrived I set up shop and the boys placed our target boards at 20 yards for starters. According to the "Remington" specs on these slugs, they would be traveling 1500fps and have 500+ foot pounds of humph at this range. I always shoot a couple rounds first at these ranges to check the "Mushroom" of a round. The groups at this short distance were funny. Two within a dimes distance and a flier, two spot on and a flier. The deformation of these rounds is great, the 109 grain slug really flattens out well to the size of a penny. As we stretched out the distance to 50 yards things were promising. Even at this distance the Federal rounds held up well. Shot groups were tolerable, within 3", and still two spot on and a flier.

    (Photo of flattened slug)

    Now we all know that the chances of rounds being deformed to the point of creating such strange shot groups is near to impossible. Therefore we concluded human error and decided to take it slow and easy, with "Sniper like" posture, breathing, trigger squeeze, etc. And what do you suppose happened? Two tight rounds, could cover with a nickel, and one flier an inch away. Oh well, I never was a Carlos Hathcock with a rifle anyway.

    In all sincerity guys, the Remington Slugs are a great deal for the price. I will be using them in my .410 Marlin Lever-Action soon and will post pics too. For the price you cannot beat them and for accuracy they will need you to test them in your gun. For all the data, CLICK HERE and you can read the specifics
     
  8. spittinfire

    spittinfire New Member Supporter

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    Oldyeager, do you share my thoughts that the 410 his a highly underrated shotgun? Not saying I want a Judge for self defense but the 410 can what a lot of people think it can't. Same goes for a 22 magnum in mind.

    You by chance aren't a jagermeister fan are you?
     
  9. OldYeager

    OldYeager New Member

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    Hi SpittinFire ................. OldYeager here.

    Yes, I kinda think a lot of folks hear the 'old wives tales' about the 410 shotgun and dismiss the gun out of hand. I got a 410 singleshot when I was 13 and I kept that gun until this year. I gave it to my daughter and son-in-law for their home protection. I then right away missed that old gun so much that I just had to go buy another 410. So have just brought home a Mossberg 500 in 410 pump. And have been putting a few rounds thru it to see what it will do.

    You are right, that caliber gun is just plain fun to shoot. Some guns are like that. And, I have owned 12 Ga shotguns too, first one was a bolt action that I had back in the late 1950s. Next was a Mossberg 500 in 12 Ga. I bought a short Slugster barrel for it and used it for home defence for years. A few years ago I gave that on to my son who lives in Iowa. He is the deer hunter of the family. Anyways, I kept the 410 due to fondness for shooting it. Had to replace it when I gave it away.

    I have been researching many 410 shotgun threads in different forums and have noticed a definate bias against using the 410 for home defence. Personally, I don't have a bit of problem with it along those lines.

    On Yagermeister schnaps, yea, some good stuff. Also when I was stationed in Germany (Mid 1950s), I tried lots of the local stuff.
     
  10. MJake

    MJake New Member

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    OldYeager,

    Thank you very much for your informative post on the Mossberg .410!

    I am a novice when it comes to guns, and I am just in the process of preparing to take some NRA training classes and purchase my first gun for home defense. I have seriously been considering the Mossberg .410 bore; one of the key criteria was for my (petite) wife to be able to handle the weapon comfortably if need be. I know that there are women of all sizes out there who learn to handle 12 and 20 gauge shotguns just fine, but I also must be realistic: we will try to get in as much practice as we can, but the time we will be able to devote to training with any weapon will be somewhat limited. Therefore, right off the bat the lower recoil of the .410 appealed to me.

    Truth be told, as a novice gun user myself (having only shot 22s before) I was also concerned about the recoil/sound/flash disorientation that might result (even on me, let alone my wife) from having to fire a 12 (or even 20) gauge shotgun indoors, in the dark or low light conditions, under stress in a home invasion situation.

    From what I've read, the .410 seems to get dismissed almost out-of-hand as a viable defensive shotgun. For example, while I very much enjoyed this podcast from ProArms discussing shotguns for home defense, it really dismissed the .410 without much discussion:

    ProArms Blog Archive 017A Homing in on the Defensive Shotgun

    I wonder how much of that is due to not considering slugs or 000 buckshot loads available. It seems to me that 000 buckshot from a .410 shotgun, such as either one of these two types of ammunition ...

    Shotshell

    Shotshell

    ... would be pretty good in a home defense situation. Your testing seems to bear this out -- although 40 yards is much longer than I'd anticipate ever needing to use my home defense shotgun (I'm thinking more along the lines of 20 feet max distance). I appreciate your reporting on it, because information about a serious buckshot or slug load from a .410 seems hard to come by.

    I'd be curious as to your thoughts on whether there is substantially less potentially recoil/flash/sound disorientation from the .410 loaded with 000 (either 2.5 or 3 inch) as compared to the 12 and 20 gauge shotguns loaded with 00.

    I'm probably going to be picking up the Mossberg .410 pump in the near future, so I really appreciate you having shared your review. Thanks again!
     
  11. OldYeager

    OldYeager New Member

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    Yesterday I was at an area Walmart store and found that they had the new Federal 410 Buck 'Handgun' loads. Sold in boxes of 20. I picked up a box but I have not had a chance to fire any yet. These loads contain 4 balls of 000 copper plated buckshot and are rated at 1200 FPS (I suppose at muzzle as it is called a 'Handgun' load. I had to do some online research after I got home as I was curious about whether I could use it from a long gun. Finally found something from Federal that seemed to indicate that it can be safely fired fron a shotgun. They indicated that a Fast burning powder was used so the load could be launched from the short barrel of a handgun. I'm guessing then that the longer barrel of the shotgun would give you a bit more speed out the barrel. But not sure.

    I went to an online ballistics calculator and did a little checking on loads from a 410. These are just close estimates as I am no expert in these matters, but was curious for my own self.

    000 buckshot ball = 0.36 inch and weighs about 0.166 oz or @ 70 grains.
    So 3 buckshot balls weigh about 1/2 oz.
    So 3 buckshot balls moving at 1300 FPS gives a muzzle energy of @ 788 FPE
    (or about 262 FPE per ball)

    And 4 balls of 000 buckshot moving at 1200 FPS gives about 895 FPE
    (more total mass, or about 223 FPE per ball of 4 each)

    Not to shabby folks. A single hit is like a hit from a 38+P round.

    At close range (5 to 10 feet) even birdshot would still impact as a wad of lead and transfer energy equivalent to or greater than 357 magnum hits.

    As I said, I am no expert in these matters and one should run the numbers yourselves. But this is interesting food for thought.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    (added info thru edit) I got to fire one round of the Federal 000 Buck 'Handgun" Load (4-ball) from the Mossberg 500 410 Fieldgun. I shot at a 2-liter coke bottle in front of a dirt berm at 40 yards. I did not notice any difference in recoil or noise. The buckshot missed the bottle. Two balls hit side by side at the base of the bottle, and two balls hit side by side about 8 inches to upper right. I tried to dig out the balls but gave up after a foot back into the mound of wet dirt.

    Strange - I found the plastic wad/shot carrier on ground 10 feet in front of bottle. I could see the impressions of the 4 balls. One petal was missing. Could the shot carrier have contained the balls together for most of the distance??
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2009
  12. OldYeager

    OldYeager New Member

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    Hello MJake ........................... OldYeager here.

    I'll be first to admit, I'm no shooting expert by any means. I just love sharing my little experience and love of shooting.

    I'm not sure I can objectively answer your question of 12 Ga comparison on felt recoil (kick) vs that of a 410. I know the 410 is very pleasent to shoot. And not so loud that all the neighbors dial 911 when I shoot it. ( I can't see the neighbors houses thru the woods, but I know they are over there).

    On my experience with 12 Ga. slugs and buckshot from a short barrel, well they kick. Not anything you can't handle, but they can definately bruise you. I think I tend to get 'Tunnel Vision' when shooting the bigger calibers and seem to intensely focus on the target (man or beast, or paper). The report and shock and noise just seems to bounce off my body and I don't seem to notice such things. Only later might notice a little purple showing up on shoulder.

    410 won't bruise you. But I think lots of folks settle on 20 Ga. And for home defence I like the short barrel shottys. I think SpittinFire on this forum somewhere probably has some pics of a nice home defence singleshot 410. I cant remember if the pics were his or someone elses. I liked that gun. I would buy a short barrel for my 410 pump if they made them, but I don't think they do.

    Good luck in your search. :)
     
  13. MJake

    MJake New Member

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    Well, Mossberg's 500 HS410 is a "short" barrel 410 pump, at least as short as legally allowed where I live.

    Here are the specs:

    Mossberg 500 HS410
    Type = 6 SHOT
    Gauge = .410
    Chamber = 3"
    Description = BEAD SIGHT, SPREADER CHOKE
    Capacity = 9
    Barrel = 18 1/2"
    Sights = bead
    Choke = SPREADER
    Length = 37 1/4"
    LOP = 13 7/8"
    DAC = 1 1/2"
    DAH = 2 1/8"
    Finish = BLUE SYNTHETIC (BLACK)
    Weight (lbs) = 5 1/2 LBS

    http://www.mossberg.com/images/Mossberg_Guns/930/NEW/50359.jpg

    That's the one I'm thinking of getting. I hope to have it within the next few months and I will definitely post when I do to report on my experience with it.

    :)
     
  14. OldYeager

    OldYeager New Member

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    MJake ...

    That is a nice looking little gun. Looks tactical. :D

    Anyways, I'm sure you will like shooting it. On 410s, just aim it like you would your rifle and you will be good. :)

    I'll try to keep an eye out for a short barrel for this Field Gun I have. But then, I have enjoyed doing a bit of target shooting with the long barrel. Its like rifle shooting with those slugs. I like that too. I have got to find a better place to shoot. The indoor range I go to with my pistols and revolvers is 40 miles away. And unless I move back to town (into an apartment) I really don't need this new shotgun for indoors intruders. I got plenty of handguns within easy reach to take care of whats indoors. :D
     
  15. OldYeager

    OldYeager New Member

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    Another milkjug hit

    I had a chance to fire the 410 Federal 4-ball 000 buckshot again at a milkjug, and I fired the 410 3-ball 000 buckshot round too at the jug.

    This test was from 30 yards. I'm kinda disappointed in accuracy of 4-ball 000 buck. No hit on the milkjug. Shots scattered all around within 40 inches circle.

    But the 410 3-ball 000 buckshot, one ball hit milkjug, and other two balls hit dirt within 10 inches of jug.

    Seems the more pellets sent downrange, the wider the spread. I guess the 410 4-ball 000 is really for the Judge Handgun (for upclose stuff).