New deer gun

Discussion in 'General Rifle Discussion' started by cva209x50, Jun 2, 2014.

  1. cva209x50

    cva209x50 New Member

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    I'm thinking about a new deer gun. I'm still getting the slug gun from my other thread(s) but I'm thinking about getting a rifle as well. I have been looking to get a new upper for my AR-15. I live in Indiana and the only "AR" calibers we can deer hunt with are : .458 SOCOM, .450 BUSHMASTER, and the .50 Beuwulf. I have a sundevils AR-15 in .223/5.56. If I get a complete upper in any of the listed legal calibers, do I need a different lower? How bad is the recoil between the three calibers? I shoot 12 gauge slugs and I'm pretty good with it. I can handle recoil up to 40 lbs just fine. Any suggestions?
     
  2. JTJ

    JTJ Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There is a 458 Socom upper for sale in the classifieds.
     

  3. Txhillbilly

    Txhillbilly Active Member

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    He better hurry,I have a trade deal in the works right now.

    If you don't reload,the 450 Bushmaster or 50 Beowulf will be easier to find factory ammo for,when retailers actually have some in stock.
    But be prepared to spend $60-75 for 20 rounds with the big bores. I only handload for the 458,and it is pretty cheap doing it that way,but still cost around $1.00 - 2.00 a round to load,depending on the bullet's used.

    You don't need a different lower,the upper will fit right on any AR-15 lower. Recoil with 300 gr - 350 gr bullets is about like a 308,heavier bullets will increase the felt recoil,but it isn't bad at all.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2014
  4. Shoobee

    Shoobee New Member

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    If you can push your muzzle energy up to that of a normal 308 bolt action rifle, then those ideas might work for deer.

    However you are forgetting that the AR's have shorter barrels than a bolt action 1903 Springfield design of 24 inches.

    The longest barrels that I know of for any of the calibers in the AR design that you mentioned would be 20 inches at most.

    So whereas you might be thinking "Oh if I can match the bullet caliber then I should be good to go" ... wrong.

    Ergo you cannot match the muzzle energy of a bolt action 308 with any AR design.

    Q.E.D.
     
  5. cva209x50

    cva209x50 New Member

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    If you want the upper, take it.
     
  6. cva209x50

    cva209x50 New Member

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    You only need 1000 ft lbs of muzzle energy to kill a deer.
     
  7. Txhillbilly

    Txhillbilly Active Member

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    Shoobee,
    He lives / hunts in Indiana,and Centerfire rifle's are prohibited unless they are pistol caliber's or certain big bore calibers like the 458 SOCOM.

    The muzzle energy of a little .308 caliber isn't crap compared to the delivered energy of a 300 - 405 grain bullet out of a 458 SC at ranges of 200 yards or less.

    CVA,It's my upper that is for sale!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 3, 2014
  8. Shoobee

    Shoobee New Member

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    Then in states like that, which are common back East, a slug shotgun is definitely the way to go, rather than an AR.
     
  9. Axxe55

    Axxe55 The Apocalypse Is Coming.....

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    i believe if a person can afford the AR in those calibers, most will choose the AR over the shotgun due to it being much more accurate a longer distances than the shotgun with slugs.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 3, 2014
  10. Franklin1995

    Franklin1995 New Member

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    I'm new to this sort of stuff, so please enlighten me.

    Is a 300 AAC Blackout round considered big bore for a AR? If so, all you would need is a new barrel, which could be very short. The 300BLK was designed to use a 9" barrel (or was it 8"?), so you could go with the legal minimum and not lose anything in terms of velocity.
     
  11. Ishooter

    Ishooter New Member

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    300 black out isn't legal in Indiana for deer. You have to have a case that is no longer than 1.8" and a bullet no smaller than a 358". That is if you are using a rifle. With a hand gun you can use any round that has a bullet of at least 6mm and has a case bigger than 1.26" if I remember correctly. So yes you could use the Black out in a hand gun just not in a rifle.

    So you end up with a lot of wildcatting going on. I use a turn bolt that shoots a round called the 358 Hoosier. Its case is 1.8" long and holds a 358 bullet. It is made from the 358 Winchester round. You take .1" out of the neck and .1" out of the case body. I get 2450 F.P.S. using 26 gr of IMR 4198 with a 200gr bullet.

    It isn't a bad round and comes very close to what I get out of my 358 Winchester. With this load I have a P.B.R. of 250 yards using a 6" kill zone. At 250 yards it has over a 1000 ft lbs of energy. That is close to the energy a 44 mag has at the barrel using a 200 gr bullet.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2014
  12. cva209x50

    cva209x50 New Member

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    If the guy who you mentioned in the trade deal wants it, let them have it. I'm noise sensitive. I love the sound of gunfire but my noise sensitivity problem makes me skittish.
     
  13. Sniper03

    Sniper03 Supporting Member Supporter

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    cva,

    The 458 SOCOM is the way to go! I have one and a buddy of mine that also works for Rock River Arms reloads the finest 458 SOCOM ammo I have ever shot. It is 325 grain Hornady FTX and they will shoot a 1 MOA Group at 100 yards out of my 16" that I built mostly all Rock River Parts including the upper. I was originally from Indiana and was thrilled the 458 SOCOM met the standard. Recoil is about like a 20 ga. and very good.
    I also can load them but am so satisfied with his I have not spent the money for dies and etc.
    Hope you landed that 458 upper if it is a quality unit an what you wanted! Let us know!
    Here is my 458 SOCOM I recently put a Quadrail on it so I can place an NV unit in front of the 3X IOR Valdada Tac Scope. Love the rifle. And yes I built it on a standard lower with a 2 Stage NM Rock River Trigger.
     

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    Last edited: Jun 3, 2014
  14. Franklin1995

    Franklin1995 New Member

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    So are AR pistols legal? :D
     
  15. John_Deer

    John_Deer New Member

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    It takes a lot less to simply kill a deer. I have seen deer that were shot with a 22 LR. Every shot passed through the deer. It is not humane to hunt with a caliber that produces less than 1,000 ft lbs of energy unless one has great restraint. I have heard a lot of people claim they only take perfect shots. I have seen these same people take shots with a handgun that would be ill advised with a 300 mag. It is easy to be selective when shooting does and small bucks. But when a true trophy presents itself all that restraint goes right out the window.
     
  16. Ishooter

    Ishooter New Member

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    On the rules for a pistol you have to have a barrel length of at least 4"and that is the only rule other then the round you are using. So I don't see why you couldn't use a AR pistol. I think a Encore in 243 would be a better choice and cheaper. Get it in a 14" barrel.
     
  17. cva209x50

    cva209x50 New Member

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    I limit my range to whatever has 1000 ft lbs of energy at that distance. The 3" Winchester 12 gauge rifled slugs I'm going to use have around 1080ft lbs of energy at 100 yards. If I use an air rifle for squirrels, I don't use anything less than 1000 fps velocity. When I look at ballistic charts for different deer rigs (legal calibers) I use 1000 ft lbs as my range limit.
     
  18. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    The 458 socom surpasses the 308 inside 100yards. Its in the same power factor of a very strong 45-70. It easily outclasses the 12ga slug at any range. The 45-70 was used extensively on buffalo which is a bit sturdier beastie than the largest whitetail...

    The 300blk is not a round i would choose for deer. Velocity is too low for me to feel comfy with using 308 bullets on deer. I put it in the same boat as 7.62x39 223/556 it can take deer but i dont consider it an ethical deer round
     
  19. cva209x50

    cva209x50 New Member

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    Perfectly legal for groundhogs and coyotes :D
    ;)
     
  20. Franklin1995

    Franklin1995 New Member

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    Some of the lower grain 300blk rounds have a muzzle velocity of around 2200. I thought that would be enough to have a good impact on deer within 100-200 yards