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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have been going back and forth with this "friend" of mine over gun control. Prior to Sandy Hook he has been a good friend, but now the gun control debate has caused a rift. I'm OK with cutting ties, but he does offer a good debate and I am short on some hard facts regarding NRA demographics. All I can offer if personal experience rather than statistics etc., I went to the NRA.org website and did a search but nothing came up on membership demographics. Here is the most recent of his contributions:

My point is that things we are accustomed to today will seem abnormal tomorrow. Going to the mall with a gun will be an aberration in 50 years, just like it would seem wrong to own slaves today.

Regarding demographic, I speak of percentage. Gun supporters are mostly white, male, conservative republicans, lower education, lower income, Midwest and South. Not many PhD, scientists, or heart surgeons. Not many blacks, Hispanics or women either. Not many artists, poets, writers, organic farmers, surfers, ...

Here is a result table from a Pew survey:
http://www.pewresearch.org/files/old-assets/pdf/gun-control-2011.pdf

If we could magically relocate American gun supporters onto a distant island, the median income would skyrocket, GDP would soar and we might well solve our debt crisis and violence problems at once.
Now, I don't want to be elitist, and I understand we need a mix of everything for a society to be vibrant, but I am not happy when a minority takes hostage the whole country. And I am really sad when kids get harmed.

The NRA has less than 4.5 million members, out of 300 million Americans. Its influence is disproportionate.
There are about 30% of adults owning guns. That's a sizable minority, but a minority nonetheless.

The median household income is around $50k per year. That leaves plenty of cash to buy many assault weapons. And gun shops take credit cards.
14 hours ago via mobile · Like

Now for the hard truth; the people who make the US a great vibrant and prosperous country are:
- millionaires
- scientists and doctors
- artists, writers, thinkers and musicians
- women building families...See More
14 hours ago via mobile · Like
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Now, personally I know many people who are wealthy (one of my regular E-trap partners shows up at the range in his Ferrari every Wednesday), some of my regular shooting buddies are artists (my best and closest friend and his wife are well known artists, she is internationally acclaimed in her area- she has taught her art all over the world), millionaires, doctors (one is a black, millionaire neurosurgeon who also has a Phd and another is a Jew, doctor and lawyer who is married to a Chinese national!!) , physicists (one of my regular shooting buddies is a physicist) and even surfers (I don't shoot with my brother very often, but he is a 2A supporter and an avid surfer- all of his kids are avid surfers- and my brother is a doctor!) or organic farmers (yours truly) etc.. It is almost eerie how he points out those specific types of people!
 

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How many people are members of any organization, I'd like to know how many people belong to the NAACP and pay dues? At the end he mentions a couple professions that somehow make us great, what an arrogant sob, what about the majority of people who get up every morning and go to a job they hate to support their families! FACT, gun ownership is primarily by white people, most cars are also white??? Most speeding tickets are written to white automobiles, most of America is also white!!! This guy is taking a bunch of arbitrary facts and attempting an argument by stringing them together. Why don't you ask him what percentage of people are on government assistance vs gun ownership. Tell him to go put his energy into something that has meaning and not to go after one of the largest demographics by percentage followed closely by poverty...
 

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I know a doctor that hunts, and has a ccw, and a couple of almost millionaires that carry, several women that carry and hunt. This one sounds fishy
 

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I find it kind if funny how people think what they do when it suits their need. It wasn't all that long ago that swearing on tv was an absolute no no, but now it is rather common place, and those that support the 1st said yay. Then thing progress and porn is now for all intent and purpose main stream, and video games have moved from pong to call of duty and now those same people that cheer for the 1st amend. Point their fingers in disgust.

Bottom line is people are people and we all have different views on things, and you are never going to change his mind on the 2nd amend. But remind him that if you start playing with things like the amendments it becomes a slippery slope and soon all will be on the chopping block.

Just my 2 cents
 

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Hunter s Thompson was a writer that owned guns, and Ted nugent is a musician that owns guns haha. There prolly not good examples
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
This is part of my reply

Funny you should mention the people you do "Not many PhD, scientists, or heart surgeons. Not many blacks, Hispanics or women either. Not many artists, poets, writers, organic farmers, surfers," as my closest shooting buddies cover all of those backgrounds. Literally. All of them. And you know that I am an organic farmer. Then again maybe I am an anomaly. I do not have any shooting partners who are of the racial and lower socioeconomic demographic that you seem to believe makes up the majority of the NRA membership.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
And here is another one of his rants:

My point is that things we are accustomed to today will seem abnormal tomorrow. Going to the mall with a gun will be an aberration in 50 years, just like it would seem wrong to own slaves today.

Regarding demographic, I speak of percentage. Gun supporters are mostly white, male, conservative republicans, lower education, lower income, Midwest and South. Not many PhD, scientists, or heart surgeons. Not many blacks, Hispanics or women either. Not many artists, poets, writers, organic farmers, surfers, ...

Here is a result table from a Pew survey:
http://www.pewresearch.org/files/old-assets/pdf/gun-control-2011.pdf

If we could magically relocate American gun supporters onto a distant island, the median income would skyrocket, GDP would soar and we might well solve our debt crisis and violence problems at once.
Now, I don't want to be elitist, and I understand we need a mix of everything for a society to be vibrant, but I am not happy when a minority takes hostage the whole country. And I am really sad when kids get harmed.

The NRA has less than 4.5 million members, out of 300 million Americans. Its influence is disproportionate.
There are about 30% of adults owning guns. That's a sizable minority, but a minority nonetheless.

The median household income is around $50k per year. That leaves plenty of cash to buy many assault weapons. And gun shops take credit cards.
 

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As you are aware, your acquaintance is fact shopping to support his argument.

Has there been a shift in demographics in the US? Yes- but it is urban vs rural. While folks that live in the "downtown" areas may be gun owners, it is not like the country where the majority of houses have at LEAST one gun.

In reading through what you posted, my biggest concern is the elitist attitude that realy shines brightly. So the folks that matter are "artists, writers, thinkers and musicians".

That right there is a large part of the problem. Yes, I dove hunt with doctors. I target shoot with folks that could buy and sell me out of petty cash (and I am well over the poverty level) But he seems to feel comfortable directing how other adults can spend their earnings, huh?

He should remember that attitude the next time the toilet backs up, and he needs a plumber- or a carpenter, electrician, a mechanic, etc. Be sure to discuss that with the person that is turning a wrench. Might be a good idea to wait for them to put down the wrench.

The company I work for has over 100 civil engineers on staff. They may not make our country "great vibrant and prosperous"- but they come in real handy to keep bridges and buildings from collapsing- so that the intelligentsia can drive their eco-friendly vehicles down to have a barrista make them their favorite coffee.

In the meantime, the Aurora theater shooter and the Clackamas Mall shooter were both college students. Ask the person if perhaps we should correlate colleges to a threat to the US. Yes, it is silly- so are his postulates.
 

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Sorry- forgot to make an observation-

Since they feel that gun owners are a minority, then he is expressing that only the rights of the MAJORITY are to be preserved. The rights of a MINORITY are.... unimportant? Immaterial?

Rather cheesy attitude there...........
 

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Sorry- forgot to make an observation-

Since they feel that gun owners are a minority, then he is expressing that only the rights of the MAJORITY are to be preserved. The rights of a MINORITY are.... unimportant? Immaterial?

Rather cheesy attitude there...........
Actually that is the very reason we have a bill of rights, so that the majority cannot vote away the rights of the minority.
 

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That first post just simply didn't make any sense. He's got you running down a bunny trail that has nothing to do with the issue.
 

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Agreed, your friend is engaging in an Alinsky type method that sets up a straw man argument that most NRA members are rural, white, conservative, uneducated Bible thumpers ( sound familiar) then sets about to argue how they are out of step with emerging demographics of the country AND he sets up gun ownership as being equivalent to being a slave owner. He of course has no facts to support this conclusion but I am sure he would spout the same horse**** to describe the Tea Party, a lie that has been dispelled in print numerous times.

The objective of this style of dishonest argument is to invent a fictitious opponent and present that opponent to the general population as being worthy of ridicule, persecution and eventual elimination from society. Hitler did it with the Jews, Stalin did it with the Ukraine, Pol Pot did it with Cambodia, now the left is trying it against gun owners, conservatives in general will be next. Google Cynthia Chase in New Hampshire.

Just a couple of observations:

Your friend compares the NRA membership to the entire US population, not to the adult population...kinda dishonest.

His list "contributors" includes millionaires. Well millionaire is not an occupation, what if the millionaire made his money selling guns?
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
More from him. I am no longer going to protect his identity. Have at him if you like. I am getting worn down. It should be known here that he is a recent immigrant from France.

Karim Khaldi We can always find exceptions, but the statistics are what matters. Women, black, liberals, independents, Hispanics, engineers, teachers, ... are generally in favor of gun control. And that demography is waxing.
Gun supporters are generally white, male, republican, low ed, low income. And that demography is waning.

Yes, I am sure we can find an affluent democrat doctor who supports the NRA, but it's like finding a needle in a hay stack, not a stack of needles.

The bottom line is that more than 50% of adult Americans want gun control. And virtually 100% of kids too
54 minutes ago via mobile · Like
Karim Khaldi Regarding the NRA membership vs. influence:
. I certainly wish the Unions would have the same relative influence as the gun lobby.
. NPR has way more members and listeners, but no lobbying power.
. Organizations fighting for the earth, against GMO, ....See More
47 minutes ago via mobile · Like
Karim Khaldi Another important demographic group are emigrants. Virtually all of them are against guns. Why?

- The ones coming from third world countries have had first hand experience with guns and reject violence.
- The ones coming from industrialized countries bring a progressive culture with them.

The US is a strange mix. The only industrialized country with homicide, violence and incarceration rates greater than many 3rd world countries.

This is an anomaly that most emigrant want to change. And it will change.
36 minutes ago via mobile · Like
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Check this out- just tonight.

(Karim Khaldi) Dude seriously, why don't you move to AZ, or KY, if you like their politics better? You will soon realize the Bay Area is a great place because we do things differently here. We believe in freedom, peace and progress. And the result is clear, the Bay Area is one of the main forces driving this country. If you wanna be stuck in the 19th century, there are plenty of backward states you can go to, with backward social and economical prospects. So, try that please: go live in another state for a few years. I bet you will come back to the Bay Area lauding Obama and you will support the repeal of 2A. But if you want to stay in the Bay Area you gotta release the parking brake and get up to speed and join the 21st century.
about an hour ago · Like


(Vikingdad) Karim, I could just as easily invite you to go back to France, but I won't. It first of all would not be polite, and secondly is uncalled for. You profess to want to stand up for minorities yet from the other side of your mouth you invite me, a political minority if you will, to leave because of my beliefs. Bad form my friend.
ZING!!
 

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Check this out- just tonight.



ZING!!
And by bad form I mean F*&k you. :D Your friend is unfortunately sounding like an obnoxious ******* who doesn't have time for the unsophisticates in fly over country. He has his head up his azz and is convinced of his own moral superiority.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
But wait! There's more! These posts were stacked with no response by me in between)

Karim Khaldi It's for your own good. We could call it a "field study" or a "research". I believe in the power of experience, and I think there is great value in looking at how things are elsewhere. Again, I am sure that if you were to go to AZ or KY you would change your mind about certain topics and you would be grateful and more appreciative for the good things we have here in the Bay Area. Good things don't come for free, and there is a link between the quality of living we enjoy, and the politics and social programs we have voted for. The Bay Area is successful because it is progressive and peaceful. The Bay Area would not be as successful if we had more guns.
11 minutes ago · Edited · Like
Karim Khaldi When I travel to Europe, I disseminate some of the good things I have acquired/learned in the US. No one in Europe has ever told me I should "go back to the US" when my views are different from there. This "go away" thing is childish. That's what kids say when they are not able to talk through. We are adults and we gain from exchanging ideas from different cultures/background. In this particular debate, we would gain by looking at the other industrialized nation. All of them recognize the metric system, all of them have banned death penalty, and none of them have anything like the 2A.
5 minutes ago · Like
Karim Khaldi We gotta stop thinking the US is a supernatural superhero country, which defies the laws of gravity, and is made of a different stuff than other countries. It makes sense to look at how our peers are doing and share best practices.
My response (and then I am going to bed)

(Vikingdad) Karim, I have traveled extensively all over a large part of this country. I love all of it. I continue to live here not because of the politics but in spite of them. I was born and raised here. Now cut with the elitist and condescending crap like "its for your own good." I could just as easily say that the Second Amendment is "for your own good", but that would be condescending and I wouldn't stoop to that level. You were the one who invited me to "go away", I did not. I was the one who said it was bad form for you to say it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Another insane rant from Karim:

Karim Khaldi commented on your link.
Karim wrote: "Gun owners and guns are not inherently evil. They are dangerous. We need to regulate them. Every modern country regulate guns. 100%. Owning a gun does not make you a criminal, but it increases the risk. If you don't know how to use a gun, you have zero risk of becoming a mass shooter. 100% of mass shooters have guns. Having guns places you into the population group of gun owners. This population group is the one from which mass shooters are coming from. There is no simple rule explaining how someone becomes a criminal. It is not a matter of time, it is not a matter of birth or skin color. It is more complex. But it happens, and anyone is susceptible of become a criminal. Let's make an (unrelated) analogy. Not every apple have an apple-worm, but some apples do. If you don't eat any apple, you have no chance to get an apple worm. If you eat an apple, you increases your risk of getting an apple-worm. If you want to regulate the worms, regulate the apples. I know, that's not a great analogy, just a simplification."
I would like to have a contest on the best response to this. But perhaps it would be silence.
 

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Vikingdad said:
Another insane rant from Karim:

I would like to have a contest on the best response to this. But perhaps it would be silence.
Every modern country doesn't have a constitution guaranteeing an uninfringed right to bear arms....
Bye...
 
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