Need some advice - Shooting

Discussion in 'Training & Safety' started by kdog, Dec 21, 2008.

  1. kdog

    kdog Member

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    Hi guys,

    I need a bit of advice.

    When I shooting my Pistol (CZ75) with the fixed sight, I always hit bottom left (somewhere between jerking and snapping).
    We mounted a LPA sight onto my CZ. Unfortunately the LPA with the original front sight dosn`t match up to well, since the LPA is to high in it`s lowest position.
    So aiming to the far bottom of the target I can somewhat manage to get some rounds in the area between 6 and 10 rings, but not consistent.
    So I took the LPA off again and the fixed sight back on.

    So I still seem to be somewhat afraid of the shot/bang/recoil, what makes me jerk my wrist downward.

    Any advice, on how to lose the fear and keeping my wrist steady?

    I could shoot in comparisson, since one of my mates has the same CZ75 and took it along to the range. So I shot whith the LPA and putting some of them into the wanted area and shooting the otehr CZ75 with fixed sights hitting bottom left.

    Any advice is welcome.

    Thank`s
    Ken

    PS: Distance is 25 metres shooting at ring targets
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2008
  2. Mark F

    Mark F New Member Supporter

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    Practice, practice, practice... the more you shoot, the less gun-shy you will become. Also, get used to using your finger tip to squeeze the trigger.

    I shoot a CZ75B in 40 S&W caliber, and it's dead on POA. Go back to your original sights...

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2008

  3. Ricebrnr

    Ricebrnr New Member

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    Whenever I see posts like this, I think basics, basics, basics.

    Start with how are you holding your pistol? With a proper 2 handed grip, it should be very difficult for your wrists to affect your shots that way.

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48]Here is a great video that may help you.[/ame]

    Once a month I help teach a CPL/CCW course and the people who shoot consistently off center benefit greatly with a little instruction on proper grip.

    After that check your stance. Doesn't matter if you prefer Weaver, Isoceles or a modified version, just make sure you're leaning into not away from the target.

    Hope that helps.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 21, 2008
  4. OFADAN

    OFADAN New Member

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    Not being ugly and only sharing from my experiences....I'm going to respectfully disagree to just practice. Practice does not make "perfect;" practice makes "permanent!"

    So if you are having issues, problems, flinching etc - practicing more is only going to turn them into muscle memory - or permanent habits...and now you're worse off than you are now. "Practice makes permanent!"

    My friend what you have is a skill related deficiency...that's all. You are unconsciously AND consciencly incompetent. You don't know-what you don't know. You know you are flinching or jerking or whatever but you don't know why you're doing it and more importantly HOW to correct it! So just shooting more and/or buying new sights isn't going to fix it! Say, it is nothing to be overly concerned about as long as you can find someone who can diagnose your issue and offer the approprate intervention/correction. Once you've been taught the correct way THEN practice and build the new skill into a permanent muscle memory.

    Just buying more sights and other gear isn't going to make the problem go away...you need to invest the $$ and time to find the right person to help you. Once you develop the skill then you can pick up anything from a $3000 Wilson combat 1911 to a $23 POJ pistol with the worst sights in the world and still be able to shoot and shoot well.

    I started out shooting in rock pits when i was 12...I flinched, and yanked and jerked the trigger but I was so incompetent and ignorant I didn't know any better. I have spent two person's wages buying gear always thinking the next new gaget will improve my shooting...it didn't and it won't!

    Then about 30 years ago I helped a friend and in return they signed me up to a (now) big name shooting school. That gift changed my life - literally. The best gift I ever got!

    A case in point...a few years ago I was doing a demostration in front of 15 to 20 diginitaries. They asked me to shoot a particular gun - which just happened to be a cheap POJ...so I did a LEO qualification course with this particular gun. The rear sight fell off during the first stage of fire out of 5 stages total. I didn't even hesitate and just let my correct 'permanent' muscle memory kick in. By the grace of God and good technique I was able to shoot a perfect qualification score, without the aid of a rear sight, and the dignitaries never knew I had a mechancal related problem....all I did was rely on my training and the correct technique with a piece of junk pistol and still was successful.

    Do yourself a favor...save the $$$ on the sights and seek out a reputatable school and take a one or two day class! It will change your shooting life - forever....or you can continue down this same conventional wisdom path and be chasing guns and sights and holsters and whatever for the rest of your life and never improve much!

    Sorry in advance if my blatent honesty is too "over the top"...
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2008
  5. BillM

    BillM Active Member Supporter

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    Set up some sandbags, rest the frame just in front of the trigger guard
    on them and concentrate on a slow smooth trigger pull. If it hits
    the middle of the target it's not the gun.

    Get some coaching. If there aren't any coaches around, have
    someone videotape your shooting. I've seen LOTS of things on
    video that I didn't know I was doing while shooting.

    I'm assuming you are shooting 2 handed? Establish a correct grip,
    and really concentrate on the weak hand grip.
     
  6. Jay

    Jay New Member

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    For a right-handed shooter, use as is.... for a left-handed shooter, flip it left to right.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Rentacop

    Rentacop Well-Known Member

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    Lots of good advice in these posts . I would advise shootig a .22 target pistol or an accurate air pistol to see if you shoot well when there is no recoil and loud bang . If you can shoot a .22 fine, then your problem is flinch .

    To cure flinch, (1) Dry fire a lot . You can buy or make snap caps if you are afraid dry fire will damage your gun . ( 2) Have a friend load up " ball and dummy " drills for you . When you hit an empty, you'll see how badly you pull down on the gun ! (3) If you shoot a 9mm , try a .45 for 100 rds. After that, the nine will feel like a .22 and you'll lose your flinch/fear . ( 3) Hold the trigger to the rear for a split second after the shot fires ; helps teach follow-through and cure flinch .

    Bench rest your gun and fire it to check the zero . Some guns shoot dead on at 25 yards and some shoot low until 50 yards . Be sure your gun is not a problem before working on your marksmanship.

    Concentrate on sight alignment and not the trigger. Keep pressing as you watch the front sight and maintain your sight picture as if the gun never fired ( you'll see the front sight rise straight up ) . If your eyes are focused on the front sight and you do not
    blink, you will see if the front sight drops or goes left and be able to predict the placement of the shot .
    Be patient . Even experienced shooters flinch sometimes . You are doing some things right : You are placing the target far enough away to force you to shoot properly. You are working on marksmanship instead of speed . Bravo !
    Look into the many resources cited on the " Any Good Books Thread " and the target diagrams posted on another thread my the NRA instructor .
     
  8. kdog

    kdog Member

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    o.k. guys, thank`s for all the posts and the help.

    I will try to answer all in one post.

    practice is a good advice, but I also agree, that I first have to get the mistakes I make away, otherwise it could turn out negative.

    I put the original sights back on after I came back from the range today. Putting on the LPA was an idea, but not a good one, since the rear sight didn`t match up well to the front sight. The reason we put the LPA on, was that I shot a CZ75B last month, that had a LPA and a tuned trigger and the came in dead on, so we thought, or better I thought it would help. I was tought a better one on that.

    My mate from the range, a police shooting instructor here in germany, has a Kadet downgrade system for the CZ75 that I used when shooting his gun and that worked out fairly good, but not perfect.

    What I notice every now and then is, when I pull the trigger slowly, I expect the shot to break at a specific point, but the shot breaks a bit later and that makes me tilt down my wrist unwanted.
    Since I have the CZ75 that has gotten better. It was really bad when shooting the stock Glock17 from my mate, that has the original trigger system and is extremly heavy. (One reason I don`t like to shoot the Glock). The trigger on the CZ75 is much smoother.

    I will use a bench rest for pistols next time I am at the range to check the accuracy on the 25 metres, but that will mostlikely first be next year in January. Have to see, if I make it to the range a further time this year or not.

    I will keep you guys postet on this. But any bit of advice is welcome here.

    Thank`s
    Ken
     
  9. jeepcreep927

    jeepcreep927 New Member

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    "To cure flinch, (1) Dry fire a lot . You can buy or make snap caps if you are afraid dry fire will damage your gun . ( 2) Have a friend load up " ball and dummy " drills for you . When you hit an empty, you'll see how badly you pull down on the gun !" Rentacop (sorry, I don't know how to quote part of a post)

    This is the best advice I know of to address flinch or anticipation. As a full time instructor for 4 years, 363 days a year, 10 hours a day, trigger control was the single most common error I observed. Grip was second (overgripping).
     
  10. eapking

    eapking New Member

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    Someone else mentioned this but...

    Assuming you are right handed. I had the same problem. Had someone tell me to not have the trigger go past the quick of the nail on your index/trigger finger. It took a while to get used to it, and my finger tip got pretty wore out the first time trying. It did work though. Got a lot more near center (classic round target).
     
  11. kdog

    kdog Member

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    The only part of my finger on the trigger is my finger tip.

    I have a snapcap here and I also practice dry firing my pistol.
    I will continue to practice with it.

    @ Rentacop,

    here in germany practicing whith another gun is not so easy.
    The shooting ranges here are not equipted like th e ones in the US. The only rental weapons they have here are 22`s or airguns. And not even look alikes, but pure match ones like the following ones:

    And these don`t really handle very much like a stock pistol. The trigger is a totally different feel and function upto electronic triggers.

    I tried first shooting a CZ75 whith the Kadet system on it to be able to shoot .22`s and then swapped over to the 9mm system. But also the other way round. First the 9mm and then the .22 System. By doing that, the handling of the .22 was fine.

    [​IMG]

    But I don`t have anybody at the range I know or shoot whith, that has a pistol in a larger caliber than 9mm.

    .22 Caliber Sportpistol

    [​IMG]

    Airgun

    [​IMG]

    Ken
     
  12. kdog

    kdog Member

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    Hi guys,

    just got back from the range.
    Had to hurry up, since the range is having theyr new year internal turnament.
    The ggod thing was, I was totally alone at the range, so I could shoot the way and speed I wanted to. And that was for today just the right thing.
    100 round in just under 30mins (that is a lot for germany, so don`t comment the amount of rounds fired).
    What I found is, that by shooting that amount at that speed (only 5 rounds per mag), I kind of lost my fear of the shot (bang and recoil).
    I was able to adjust my grip to the way it felt most comfortable (considering it was bloody cold at the range) and also find where to aim at (sight adjustment on the original fixed sight).

    I didn`t put very many in the inner circles of the traditional ring targets, but a hell of a lot more then usual.
    Most of the rounds came in just under the 6 and 7 ring.

    First target
    [​IMG]

    Second target
    [​IMG]

    Third target
    [​IMG]

    Now, I know that is not perfect shooting, but as mentioned above, a hell of a lot better than usually, where I hardly get any hits in the black area of the target.
    The target distance on the range is fixed to 25meters.

    So I am happy for today. My wife not, since I "wasted" 100 round of ammo and now inly have 75 rounds left in the safe. That means, I have to get some ammo again pretty soon..:D

    Ken
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2009
  13. kcolg

    kcolg New Member

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    I've taken to the range over time,may friends who were first time shooters to show them the basics( I'm not a competition shooter or best shooter in the world..),you see flinching a lot ,and my humble piece of advice that I usually tell them to avoid flinching is that as far as they are at the right side of the barrell,it's only noise and it would not hurt them, I think there is a mental association between firing and danger because obviously that noise is coming from a firearm,but if you can mentally tell your self that you are at the right side of the barrel and think that is only noise it might help you...also the advice given here about having a friend preparing your magazine with live/dummy rounds is very good...