Myth #26 Busted

Discussion in 'Ammunition & Reloading' started by SGWGunsmith, Oct 12, 2018.

  1. SGWGunsmith

    SGWGunsmith Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Somebody had once posted that semi-auto .22 caliber rimfire pistols produce less velocity than a "fixed breech" revolver, or single shot ( like the Contender ). Reasoning being, that some velocity loss happens when the cartridge is fired and the bolt is blown backward, allowing some of the beneficial gas to escape.
    Now, it took me a bit of contemplating this theory, sitting on the deck with three fingers of "Crown Royal" and one ice cube. The culmination of thought resulted in, "I gots to know".
    So, here's my chronographed results where I used a Ruger Mark II pistol with the 10-inch barrel. I ran 10 rounds with the bolt freely moving backward, and 10 rounds with my right hand thumb holding the bolt from going backward.
    Look at the 'average' velocity listed as M, or mean, in both columns. The variance is meaningless:

    [​IMG]
     
  2. donthav1

    donthav1 Well-Known Member

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    Nice to see some real data to prove/disprove it. While technically the poster was right, on average it was faster, the difference is barely 1%. Something no one would ever notice.

    Another one i've always heard is a bolt action or single shot rimfire rifle is more accurate than an auto & judging by what i've seen that also isnt the case
     
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  3. SGWGunsmith

    SGWGunsmith Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Even less than 1%. Look at the difference in the average of the Standard Deviation,"S".
    To get a more reliable statistical control base, 100 rounds would've been ideal, but after seeing these results and with the "not-so-great" ammunition involved, I just thought what more would prove more?
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2018
  4. JTJ

    JTJ Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There are so many factors involved in accuracy it is foolish to name just one but if I had to name the main factor it would be money. If you are willing to spend the money on the gun and ammo you will get accurate if you are capable of utilizing it.
     
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  5. Imurhuckleberry

    Imurhuckleberry Well-Known Member

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    I am still wondering why you water down Crown Royal with an ice cube. My grandpa taught me to drink liquor straight out of the bottle or on a glass if I wanted to be a gentleman. He said fish do nasty things in water.

    Otherwise thanks for the results.
     
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  6. SGWGunsmith

    SGWGunsmith Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Well, I've only been involved with .22 rimfire shooting/testing, and trying things out for myself, a short time, only 50 years. During those years I've questioned many of the passed along "stories" that some profess, and now, due to the inter-web, it seems it's even worse.
    I do the testing I do, for me, and that's how I gain "experience", by doing and testing and not accepting hear-say, or what others claim but with no testing proof of their claims. So, when I have some proof, I'll share it. If others disagree, so be it, no sweat off my boys.

    Of course there are variables, and they are involved with most everything when it comes to firearms, we'd be fools to think otherwise. If ANYONE, can come up with proof otherwise of what I've found, let's see it, show us the results they have found that differs. Providing just a bunch of ink, is useless.
    I have discovered one major factor involving .22 rimfire accuracy, and it involves how well the barrel is made. If there are tight and open areas in the same barrel, you're wasting your time trying to turn that "sows ear into a silk purse". That's why I slug .22 rimfire barrels, even the alleged "GOOD", costly, ones. You can spend up to $20.00 for 50 rounds of so called premium .22 rimfire ammunition, but if you think you can make a bad barrel shoot well with that ammunition, then it's a really foolish waste of money. You can spend up to $500.00 for a so-called premium barrel, but if that barrel doesn't shoot, what the hell good is it? I have found regular, run of the mill production barrels that slug beautifully from chamber to muzzle, and when I find those, that's when I just love to play with everyday, mid-range priced ammunition, and the variables involved with that brand. Great fun!
     
  7. SGWGunsmith

    SGWGunsmith Well-Known Member Supporter

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    'Cause I paid for the Crown Royal & Makers Mark, and there are NO warning instructions on the box or bottle to discourage a "personal" preference. My grandpa came from Ireland and drank Jameson's with one little ice cube.
    I actually haven't found ANY fish in the water that we buy. Maybe I'm getting cheated. :eek:
     
  8. locutus

    locutus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    AMEN, Brutha. And again I say AMEN!!!! Don't adulterate whiskey.
     
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  9. Daoust_Nat

    Daoust_Nat Well-Known Member Supporter

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    A lot of “experts” say a wee drop of water opens up the bouquet and improves the flavor. Many high end Scotch and Bourbon drinkers drop one cube of ice into as stated a couple fingers of the liquor.

    I can drink it neat, with a cube or on the rocks (though usually with lower end Scotch).
     
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  10. SGWGunsmith

    SGWGunsmith Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I do get a hankerin' for Scotch now and then, but I sure ain't sophisticated enough to judge any of the various brands. I don't know how to tell if it's one month old or Noah made a batch while he was floatin' around waiting until the ark hit dirt.
    So, I may be a bit blasphemous when I do Scotch and club soda, but I sorta like it that way. Plain old Scotch takes some time to get used to, as compared to a bourbon that sits on a higher shelf.
    I'm gonna start a thread about what sort of "booze" that all of us "Deplorable's" like around here...............should be interesting!
     
  11. JTJ

    JTJ Well-Known Member Supporter

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    SG, Occasionally you run into a gem that fortune smiled upon in production but most of the time you have to spend the money to get the premium barrel and the fantastic trigger and all the other stuff. I went to a 22lr match and found out my gear was no match for what was there. This was supposed to be a simple 22lr match or so I was led to believe. I think they just wanted my money to sweeten the pot. These guys had $2k+ in their rigs and $10-20 a box ammo. Scopes that you could tell the sex of a fly at 50 yards. My Winchester bolt and 3-9x40 scope was like driving a Chevy to a Rolls Royce show. The range had a 300 yard prone high power match so I went to look. Did not bring a rifle. Same story same guys just different calibers. I would like to see a 50 yard stock 22lr rifle match where everyone uses the same ammo like Minimags. No mods allowed and weight limits. Scope limited to 4x and all shots off hand. Maybe 2" or 3" discs to knock over. That would be fun and not a ton of money.
     
  12. jigs-n-fixture

    jigs-n-fixture Well-Known Member Lifetime Supporter

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    The “Precision Rifle Series” recognized it as a problem and came up with a “Production” class. It’s limited to unmodified factory produced rifles, and the msrp for the rifle and the scope is limited to $3000. It’s still expensive, but the newbies don’t have to compete against folks who have that much in just the bare action.

    The production class is what drove the development of the Ruger Precision Rifle, followed by the similar ones from other manufacturers.

    Funny thing, at least to me, was the number of people who bought, and then immediately modified the Precision rifles. First six months they were out, folks were taking off the stock, barrels, Forend, and triggers, and selling them on eBay. I picked up five barrels as spares, and different calibers, along with three of the adjustable stocks.

    The stocks work quite well on my precision ARs, if I add a spacer to bring the scope up a bit. And, the slightly higher alignment is lots easier on my stiff old neck.
     
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  13. SGWGunsmith

    SGWGunsmith Well-Known Member Supporter

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    JTJ, I'm absolutely NOT refuting anything concerning the "hoops" that serious competitors ( money shooters ) put forth when it comes to competitive shooting. My information and experience put forth here, involves how "everyday" .22 rimfire, for fun, shooters can tinker with their everyday, .22 rimfire guns, if THEY choose to do so.
    I don't expect that an owner of a Sears & Roebuck single shot .22 fun gun will get involved with 300 yard competition any day soon. I do understand that many of the serious .22 rimfire shooters will follow and subscribe to more formative publications like, "Precision Shooting", so keeping things in retrospection, some things are fun to do with what we have rather than enter into those fields of grandeur that can cost a lot of $$$$.
     
  14. SGWGunsmith

    SGWGunsmith Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Seems to me that it's the "nature" of the quest for accuracy to change and try various gizmos touted to produce better accuracy. I fall for some of that stuff also, but mostly to actually see if it really does create miracles. 99% of the time it creates disappointment rather than bug-hole groups at 100 yards.
    I can do triggers better, but I have no influence on how a barrel is produced, or as to how well .22 rimfire match ammunition is manufactured. I do know how to segregate rimfire ammunition into close proximity so that it should perform more closely to what it's sold as being.
     
  15. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member Admin Moderator Lifetime Supporter

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    If I can stick an oar in here- accuracy equals reproducibility. The ability to reproduce shot to shot to shot comes from: (A) a uniform barrel- both in internal diameter and vibration at firing. (B) A trigger that breaks at the same point each shot- without creep, grit or random weird. (C) Ammo that has uniform performance. Handloading- no sweat. Rimfire- find a maker that makes a uniformly loaded product. At that point, skill of the shooter becomes paramount.

    MY answer- and far from being the only answer- is a vintage 1960s Mossberg 144 LSB. Well made barrels, lead lapped after rifling. Barrel floated free of stock. They had decent triggers that can be adjusted to your taste. Ammo- have tried most of the match rounds, found my rifles like Wolf Match. About $7 per 50. Federal Champion Target Standard Velocity darn close second.

    Works well enough that it has beaten some of the $2000+ rifles. Your mileage may vary.
     
  16. JTJ

    JTJ Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Bring that down to $500 and it would get my attention. Call it a working stiff class. Make 1st prize a case of beer.o_O
     
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  17. SGWGunsmith

    SGWGunsmith Well-Known Member Supporter

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    With any good trigger, you can remove most, if not all, of the "take-up", which is the free-play involved with the trigger pull encountered until the sear and hammer engagement is reached, and that's where the creep begins. There needs to be some degree of "creep", or, actual sear to hammer engagement, or the trigger system will be unsafe and the striker could move forward with slight jarring without enough contact of sear to hammer.
    Sear to hammer/striker notch engagement can be made much smoother so as to make the trigger pull much easier, but this is where trigger jobs can go down hill in short order if the operator doesn't do things properly.
     
  18. partdeux

    partdeux Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Gotta love data :)

    IF you're going to use ice in your whiskey, use smoked ice. Put ice in the smoke, then refreeze it into cubes. Amps up the flavor.
     
  19. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member Admin Moderator Lifetime Supporter

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    I tried smoking ice. Would not stay lit, and got the filters all soggy.
     
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  20. donthav1

    donthav1 Well-Known Member

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    I went ice fishing for the first time last year, first day caught enough to fill the trunk of my car. The wife cooked it for supper & we damn near drowned :D
     
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