my baby is sick!

Discussion in 'Gunsmithing Forum' started by upersleder, Apr 20, 2009.

  1. upersleder

    upersleder New Member

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    OK, here is the story.....

    I have had a Golden Eagle 25-06 for about 20 years, it was given to me by my dad. the gun had always shot great, most often putting three and five shot groups in a dime at 100 yards. it had some places on the finish i wish were better so i did some research for awhile and decided to take it to a local gunsmith for re-bluing. after i got the rifle back i couldn't even hit the target!:mad:

    the gunsmith said the barrel must be fouled. so i proceeded to clean it, i cleaned and cleaned until i was blue in the face!:( shooters choice, and a couple other fine products were used. with no luck on getting anything resembling a group. i have take the gun to another reputable gunsmith who inspected the gun, says the barrel appears to be installed correctly, the crown was good, but someone messed with the stock at some point. i have since tried several things, latest being full floating the barrel. I now also have been handloading ammo for it and have tried several loads, the best group i can manage so far is about 2 1/2 inches. i have purchased a new $300 scope, new mounts, tried the mounting screws tight, loose and inbetween.

    I am now at my wits end with my beloved gun, next on the list was to be cryogenically treating the barrel thinking the heat from bluing somehow screwed it up.

    I am open to suggestions, i have tried lots, just cannot believe i took a perfectly great shooting gun to get it re-blued and all of a sudden its junk!

    sorry for the long post, but i wanted to include most all of the information. :confused:
     
  2. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    This is going to get some responses, I can assure you of that.

    Let me just ask this for the sake of asking, for my own personal knowledge:

    Have you tried putting one of your previously fire formed brass cases, from when the rifle was shooting well, back into the chamber and check the fit??

    Because the .25-06 headspace you had before might NOT be the headspace you have now, even if it is indeed "correct".

    I will give this some thought and post more later, I have several ideas running through my head - but not many of them are quick and I am on a timer here. :D

    JD
     

  3. upersleder

    upersleder New Member

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    the latest gunsmith said he checked headspace, but i have not. the brass i have been loading i have only neck sized, i purchased the proper equipment for checking the length of each bullet to the rifling and have been trying different seating depths.

    I have also purchased one of those rubber things for the barrel, put it on and fired two five shot groups with it at the recommended 3/4" from the crown and from the stock, niether with any improvements. then i put the gun away.

    please ask away as i cannot list everything i have tried, hell its been four years, i cannot even remember everything i have tried!:rolleyes:
     
  4. Minionsram

    Minionsram New Member

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    I would start by pulling the rifle back down if you have not, checking the fit of the stock to the firearm. Then I would get some cerro-safe and check the chamber and the bore.
    When you were hand loading, what was the engagement of the bullett to the rifling? Check to see if the head space moved a few thousands to throw off your engagements.
     
  5. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    Okay, it's been four years, that is a BIG deal.

    So, about 4 years ago is when you had it re-blued. Has anyone RECENTLY used a bore scope to check both the throat and the rifling itself?

    I realize that your gunsmith checked the headspace, but he had nothing to compare that too. There is a min & max to headspace. It's not A LOT of tolerance, but if you were at one end of scale ( like maxed out ) and you are now at the other end ( bare minimum ) then your bullets do have a bit of throat to travel thru before it enters the lands and grooves.

    Okay, you had the barrel floated, so you had the rifle action bedded to the stock? Yes? Or did you have the stock cut away from the barrel?

    JD
     
  6. upersleder

    upersleder New Member

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    all prior shooting was done with factory ammo, i have just recently started handloading. if the headspace thing could be an issue i would be very interested in learning how to measure it and changing it. the specifications would also be a big help.

    as far as the bullet OAL i have gone from .020 to .080 from the rifling on my handloads. granted i have not done extensive testing using the same load with only the OAL change, but it is something i could try. i also could decrease the tolerance.

    I do not believe the gunsmith checked the bore.

    I floated the barrel by lightly sanding out the stock from under it. i have just enough to slide a piece of paper between the barrel and stock.

    if the barrel is threaded into the receiver properly wouldn't the headspace be the same or at least close? forgive me, this is one area i am not totally familiar with. also what effect would it ( different headspace) have if i am able to adjust the OAL of my rounds? i find it hard to believe every box of factory ammo i have purchased over the years shot fine and now nothing does. i have spent a significant amount of cash just to reload bullets for this gun, more than the gun is worth itself, that is how much this means to me.

    thanks for the help, keep it coming.
     
  7. Rex in OTZ

    Rex in OTZ Active Member

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    What was disturbed when the re-blue took place?

    The gunsmith took the barrled action from the stock when he re-mounted the rifle he dident get the action screw torque correct and the forarm is pressing on the barrel?
    mabe he lost a shim? in any case it would be best to cover all the bases (simple things and go from there) mabe a good electro cleaning once in its life wouldent hurt but i'd suggest checking on what he may have disturbed
    mabe after sitting for 4 years the stock warped ? that would raise havioc with accuracy, might findout what the wood moisture level is, it may be dried out and the result its slightly twisted outta shape here in the Arctic it happens allot especially in the winter (dry air months)
    I saw a beautiful remington 700BDL 458 Win mag with one the prettiest factory stocks you ever saw shatter when fired due to the stock drying out and brittle as glass.
    The rifle might of fallen off the bench at the shop and he dident say anything, mabe a buddy dropped it & gunsmith dident see it happen, the scope mounts would be suspect, might try a different scope too (I'm assumeing as a .25-06 its scoped) My father had problems with a remington model 78 that had a bad scope base in conjunction with a bad scope that one had us scratching our heads for a bit, cover the basics check the bedding, scope mount, the scope.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2009
  8. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    Okay, first things first. I firmly believe that you need to have the barrel bore scoped. That should cost you exactly zero dollars in a quality shop. It takes about 3 to 5 minutes of precious time and it will tell you A LOT about whether the barrel itself is still good.

    After all those years of service, it's possible that it's just plain given up the ghost and needs to be rebarreled. While it's highly suspect that this happened at the exact same time as you had the re-bluing done, I am merely looking for any possible cause to the accuracy issues since I can't inspect the weapon myself.

    Now, assuming that the barrel is good and the reloading you are doing is correct for the headspace that you have in the weapon, the next thing I am looking at is the mating between the action and the stock.

    Action screws need to be tight, but not OVER tight. Too much torque is as bad as not tight enough. It can put undue pressure on the action and cause problems.

    You said that you changed the scope and the mounts. Are you sure that you have a quality mount between your action, your rings and your scope??

    On most factory rifle actions, we drill the stock action screws out to a larger size just so we can get a good mate between the two. This is done on the end mill, in the vise, to insure we are in line with the bore.

    The next thing I would think about doing is getting a glass bed job done on the action. That would give your action a nice, custom fit to rest in and would alleviate any stock play factors. This will probably cost $150-$200 unless you want to try it yourself. It's not hard, but it's easy to screw it up as well. I speak from experience there. :rolleyes:

    Sanding of the fore end was a good idea, but if your action is sitting funny in the stock, and being subjected to odd stresses from over tight screws, or having had the wood warped over a couple of years, it's possible it out of alignment and just not the same as it once was.

    Again, these are all guesses in the dark as I can't see the weapon and I can't inspect it myself. Just ideas of things to try on the cheaper end of things.

    JD
     
  9. upersleder

    upersleder New Member

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    I have been through the barrel is shot out scenario, and it just seems strange to me that it happened that i shot great groups a week before i had the gun done and after i could not find a bullet hole on the paper, this in my mind would not nor could not happen. BUT I will try and locate a knowledgeable person with a bore scope to verify, as you said, this should be an easy thing to check.

    I have mounted the scope on the gun myself, not that that means anything to you guys, but i am kind of picky when it comes to alot of things. plus the last gunsmith tried three scopes and new mounts himself, with no noticeable improvements.

    the other suggestion i received last week was to shim the rear of the barrel in front of the lug to provide some support or light upwards pressure. i have tried shimming behind the lug, with marginal results. I would be happy to do glass bedding, but i would need to do a bit more research before i tried it, but it was one of my next options.

    is there a way to eliminate the stock from the equation? I have access to a good machine shop, if i could build something to mount the action to and test fire........??
     
  10. upersleder

    upersleder New Member

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    and, where are you? I am located in Upper Michigan, have a really good truck that will drive alot of places......if i could find a reputable person with the proper equipment i would be happy to take a drive.
     
  11. rugermike

    rugermike New Member

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    Just thinking out loud?

    Headspace or shims removed/added on stock or torq on mounting screws or this is out there, but Golden Eagles have a adjustment on the firing pin(depth of penetration), is there any signs of blow back or distruction on the primers of the shells you have fired since the reblueing? Belief me, Stranger things have happened? You are sure the same ammo is being used? Crown on the rifle hasn't been damaged during reblueing? Or was it recrowned during the process? JMO:confused:
     
  12. upersleder

    upersleder New Member

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    I did not know about the adjustment, but everything looks good on the primers. i have inspected all the rounds i have shot in the past few weeks. the crown was suggested by the last gunsmith, he looked it over and said it looked fine and did not look to be re-crowned. but no guarantees. same ammo was used after that was used before.
     
  13. jeepcreep927

    jeepcreep927 New Member

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    How was the reblue job done? If the salts entered the chamber and were not nuetralized, that might be a big part, if not the only problem. In the service my first hot salt reblue job (Oxynate 7) was on a match grade Garand. I ended up with solution in the bore that wasn't properly neutralized. It just kept on rusting for about a week until I noticed it on reassembly. Needless to say, it wasn't match grade after that.

    I would try to find a bore scope to have a look. Good luck.
     
  14. upersleder

    upersleder New Member

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    that seems to be a valid suggestion. we have looked with a light, but i think i need to find a borescope.
     
  15. upersleder

    upersleder New Member

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    OK guys, I have cleaned my rifle really good, loaded up new rounds and started off today with what shot the best group last fall and NOPE!!! the same exact load would not come close to grouping. Then i fell upon another load that showed promise, loaded 5 more the same and they shot really well, so i loaded 5 more the same and 5 lowering the jump .005 each till they touched the lands then could not get any of them to group any more. I am so frustrated!:mad:

    Next thing is to try re-crowning the barrel, after that i guess i will start searching someone who can make me a new barrel for my gun. I have not found anyone who can give me an answer on the bore condition as of yet, am still looking for a gunsmith who can in the UP or Wisconsin.
     
  16. stalkingbear

    stalkingbear Active Member

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    It's my guess the crown is damaged (perhaps it was dropped) or the bluing solution got inside the barrel. Headspace shouldn't change on a rebluing job.
     
  17. upersleder

    upersleder New Member

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    Took a good light and a cool magnifying glass today and looked in the bore as far as i could. I was not happy with what i found. the first inch to inch and a quarter is all pitted from something.:mad::eek:

    I am assuming this would affect performance.

    what are my options??? what will happen if i chop an inch and a half off the barrel and re-crown it?
     
  18. stalkingbear

    stalkingbear Active Member

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    The pitting is most likely from bluing solution in the bore and not neutralized. It sounds to me that the person who blued your barrel owes you another barrel. I'm sure a cutting barrel & a precision recrown will help, but how much I don't know. The reason I don't know how much the crown will help is I don't know how far down the barrel the pitting goes.
     
  19. upersleder

    upersleder New Member

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    well drastic measures were taken this past weekend:eek:

    I cut a bit over an inch off the barrel, squared it nicely and removed all the burrs, the groups didnt improve, but i suspect i need the barrel properly crowned.

    Does the $80 crowning tool they make work well? I am thinking of ordering it and giving it a shot. or do you recommend a professional?
     
  20. stalkingbear

    stalkingbear Active Member

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    What you'll have to do is "break" the edge of the rifling after you crown with a brass ball and lapping compound. I'd recommend you have it crowned by a gunsmith. It'll be more precise to crown it on a lathe.