Mosin nagant 1891/30 vs m44

Discussion in 'General Rifle Discussion' started by Daxil, Jul 14, 2014.

  1. Daxil

    Daxil New Member

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    I want a Mosin nagant and have pinned my choices to these two.
    As far as I see it:

    M44: Carbine size makes it easier to maneuver great in hunting but limits range a bit. It has worse recoil. Bayonet makes the barrel heat unevenly making the bullet "bounce" in the barrel reducing accuracy.

    1891/30: Can make a great sniper rifle because of longer range. Longer barrel makes it harder to maneuver. Hard but not as bad recoil,making it a better range riffle. Detachable bayonet makes barrel heating even having good accuracy.

    I still have not made a choice which one to get.

    Note:I am looking for a cheap practical rifle not for historical value since I will mod the rifle.
     
  2. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    not sure where you are getting the uneven heating thing and bullet bouncing in the barrel. neither of this is true.

    you may be confusing barrel harmonics.

    barrel length has very little to do with effective range.

    the issue with the m44 is the vast majority have very cruddy barrels the majority of 91/30 have new or like new barrels. so if you go with a m44 be sure you take someone with you that knows how to judge a rifle barrel do not buy one sight unseen.

    there are a lot of chinese version do not get one of those
     

  3. Daxil

    Daxil New Member

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    So its more of a barreling issue. I will keep that in mind.
     
  4. jjfuller1

    jjfuller1 New Member

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    ive had both. i sold the 91/30. it was fun but the added weight and length made it tricky to clean. i will not get rid of my m44. its so fun to play with. i havent shot it at more than 100yrds but still hits an 8 inch plate..
     
  5. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    most of the 91/30 we see were run through a russian arsenal rebuilt to like new dipped in cosmoline and put into storage after ww2.

    most of the m44 were taken out of service and just cosmo'd and eventually sent over here. by the time the m44 fell out of favour the russians had pretty much decided they were never going to need bolt guns again so they did not spend the resources to rearsenal. the few that did get redone were redone with cut down 91/30 barrels and those are the ones you want.

    that being said the m44 is a minute of deer all year long and prefers 180 grain bullets as does the 91/30

    most of the surplus ammo folks shoot is 147-150 grain machine gun ammo not suited for the 91/30 or m44

    using winchester white box 180 all 3 of my 91/30 are about 1.5-2 moa sometimes moa. my m44 which is one of the shoddy barreled ones does about 2.5-3 moa. double those values using the cheap corrosive surplus

    ive used my 91/30 pu sniper on deer and yotes and it serves just fine as a hunting rifle. yeah its long but its very doable
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2014
  6. John_Deer

    John_Deer New Member

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    I really don't find the 91/30 any harder to carry than my hunting rifles. In fact, it is easier to carry than a hunting rifle. I feel no guilt when I use the 91/30 to smash down brush or knock down spider webs. I have no shortage of lacquer or black rustoleum.
     
  7. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    i used one of mine to pry a 4 wheeler out of a mudhole once... it just needed that extra forward shove to break free. wiped off stock on some grass and shot a javelina about 40 minutes later

    i never would have done that with my scar17
     
  8. Joshua M. Smith

    Joshua M. Smith New Member

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    Hello,

    Just an FYI: If the M44 has the bayonet attached, it's actually a couple ounces heavier than a standard 91/30. The bayonet and lug add a lot of weight.

    I have a bayonet lug, no bayonet, sitting here in the shop and it's around one to 1.5lbs.

    The 91/30 is longer, and that is a strength in my view. I had to get used to it, but after owning a Kentucky Long Rifle clone for a while before giving it to my brother and new sister-in-law for their wedding, the 91/30 just didn't seem that long anymore! :)

    Remember, the M44 was primarily a defensive weapon for tank crew, heavy gunners, etc, playing the same role for them as our M1 Carbine was intended to play for us. Soviet logistics dictated the same ammo for all long arms and simplicity of manufacture in post-war USSR demanded an arm they were already familiar with as R&D resources were going to the SKS-45 and AK-47.

    I have not found the 91/30 to be a burden in any but the thickest vegetation, and even in thick vegetation, the M44 tends to get the bayonet hooked, even when folded.

    Just some thoughts.

    Regards,

    Josh
     
  9. ICleanBrassWithJager

    ICleanBrassWithJager New Member

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    Could you explain this to me? I've always thought lighter ammo is better in shorter barrels.
     
  10. Joshua M. Smith

    Joshua M. Smith New Member

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    The Mosin-Nagant was originally designed for a 212-grain bullet.

    It therefore has a 1:9.5" twist.

    The optimal bullet weight for this twist is 174 grain to about 200 grain.

    Regards,

    Josh
     
  11. Mercator

    Mercator New Member

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    Just a small correction, the M44 carbine was for guard duty, not the tank crews. By 1944 they had SMG's.

    Also the Russian M44 bores are usually cleaner than an average m91, many look unfired. They were manufactured in the end of WW2 when the Mosin rifle was getting phased out in the Red Army.
     
  12. Joshua M. Smith

    Joshua M. Smith New Member

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    Mercator,

    You are correct. I don't know why I said tank crews.

    Point is that it was not a primary weapon for front-lines.

    Regards,

    Josh
     
  13. ICleanBrassWithJager

    ICleanBrassWithJager New Member

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    I didn't word that as well as I should have, I meant more along the lines of "I thought a longer barrel helped stabilize a heavy bullet better".
     
  14. Joshua M. Smith

    Joshua M. Smith New Member

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    Hello,

    Nah, long barrel or short barrel, you find what your rifle likes and go with it.

    You might lose a bit of velocity with a shorter barrel, but this doesn't seem to be a hard and fast rule with the Mosins I've seen.

    If you think about it, even if you give up a couple hundred FPS, you're still pushing a 200 grain bullet faster than an AK pushes a 125 grain bullet.

    Accuracy and precision have more to do with barrel (and especially crown) condition than barrel length.

    If you have a shorter barrel of the same diameter as a longer barrel, of the two, the shorter barrel will be stiffer and in theory slightly more precise.

    In practice, that's usually not the case, or at least not anything your average shooter would notice. It's all about harmonics and accuracy nodes (look that up!)

    Shortening a barrel will give it a different resonance but you'll still have particular nodes in which you'll find the best precision.

    Regards,

    Josh
     
  15. chloeshooter

    chloeshooter New Member

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    Each one is different. My M44 was never shot or only test fired, it is in immaculate condition. I would not hunt with it outside of 50 yards though - not very accurate. I have heard that the M44s were hit and miss for accuracy (no pun intended). For a carbine it's too heavy. I really, really wanted one of these until I got one. Now it's a closet queen. I will eventually trade it to someone else who has to have one, or give it to one of my sons.

    I have a 1940 91/30 Tula that shoots 4 MOA at 100 yards - like Jon said, 'minute of dear' - open sights. I am sure it could be a 2-2.5 MOA shooter with good ammo and an optic of some type. It's also heavy but at least with that Kentucky Long Rifle length barrel, you can understand why. ....also as was mentioned above, +1 for checking the crown

    Personally I think the round has limits.
     

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  16. Chainfire

    Chainfire Well-Known Member Supporter

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    For the cost, just get one of each. They are both under-priced and both a lot of fun to shoot.
     
  17. John_Deer

    John_Deer New Member

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    One tangible advantage a longer barrel gives you is a longer sight plane. There are a lot of very interesting guns (mostly pistols) on the market that I have never considered because the sight plane is just to short.
     
  18. Mercator

    Mercator New Member

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    But if you get just one, for sports, go full size. I've owned and compared both kinds, shot them side by side. If you think you deserve punishment for your sins, a range session with an M44 is a good start. It has more kick, flash, and especially muzzle blast than the M91. It is however handy for carry or transport. Maybe if you like shooting offhand.Most Mosins are fired from a rest, so whatever advantages the carbine might offer are lost.
     
  19. Joshua M. Smith

    Joshua M. Smith New Member

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    Will you elaborate please?

    Regards,

    Josh