Mosin accuracy , reducing group size old school

Discussion in 'General Rifle Discussion' started by HM2Grunt, Oct 25, 2012.

  1. HM2Grunt

    HM2Grunt New Member

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    I have answered other threads about this, but have only received a little advice. I will start a new thread to see if I can get more exposure.
    I have a 1930 Mosin 91/30 that I have put a PU scope on. I realize that the Soviets used hand-picked rifles to make into their snipers. I have "hand-picked" four of my own Mosins from various sources, but it's not as good as the factory selection probably was. The problem That I am experiencing with my home built sniper is the barrel, when it gets hot it tends to shoot more open groups. As I have described before: From a cold/clean barrel at 50yds; shots 1-5 produce a two inch group. Shots 6-10 tightened to about 1 1/2 inch. Shots 11-15 reduced further to the point where I can almost cover the group with 2 target pastsers. The shots 16-20 open to about 2 inches, with the successive 5 shot groups seeming to double in size. I let the barrel cool the time it takes to walk to the target to score it and return. It never got uncomfortably hot to touch. I had previously cork-bedded the receiver are because the WW2 stock was shrunken enough, that when I tightened the trigger guard screw, the receiver still seemed loose. The corking helped tighten the rifle up, and I free floated the barrel channel, and sanded down the spots on the handguard that showed evidence of contact.
    The next trip to the range was no better in regards to group size after putting card stock under the barrel at the muzzle end.
    Temp checks of the barrel, checked with a laser thermometer, were in conclusive, running about 85-86 degrees F, While my companion, banging away, had a temp of 104F, and he had a large group size, as I wood have expected.
    I am trying to keep the rifle "old school" as much as possible without going to changes that I cannot undo such as fiberglass. Is there anyone with any ideas to help keep the group size down. I have safely worked the trigger and sear without over lightening it. I shoot from a rock steady rest position. The barrel on the Mosin is not shot out visually checked, but I have no way the really gauge it. The ammo is surplus 1982 Bulgarian, and I have had no problems with it, and some groups, as previously noted, have been very small Do I need to stop beating a dead horse, and get a newer stock, or there other things that I need to try to better support the rifle's receiver and barrel
     
  2. nitestalker

    nitestalker New Member

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    I don't know what you expect from these old battle rifles? The facts are the Russian Snipers made all most all their kills at very close range. They hid in the rubble of Moscow and killed Nazis at 25 and 30 yards. Yes, there were some long shots but even the best snipers made there kills close up. The German scoped 98 Mauser 8X57 was a far better sniper rifle of the day. The Germans were trapped by the Russian Winter and were fish in the barrel.
     

  3. The_Kid

    The_Kid New Member

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    At 50 yards, they are not "very small."

    You need to find ammo that will work with your barrel's harmonics.

    Look at all the stuff you have done and pondering to do, yet you are using the cheapest ammo on the planet... I assume.

    I mean, cheap ammo is fine; as long as it is in tune with the rifle's harmonics.
     
  4. HM2Grunt

    HM2Grunt New Member

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    Nitestalker Thanks for your reply. I had wondered, after seeing what I had written and sending it off, if I haven't been looking at this wrong. I really like this old rifle, and dearly love trying different things to make it accurate, but what can I really expect from a rifle that is 82 years old, what are people really getting with this old hardware now a days?
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
  5. The_Kid

    The_Kid New Member

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    Here is a 94 year old rifle at 300 yards.

    [​IMG]

    That is with a corrosion damaged bore and iron sights.

    [​IMG]

    I rarely shoot groups over MOA with that rifle. My average group size at 200 yards is about the size of your 50 yard group.

    [​IMG]

    I've never found a rifle that couldn't shoot sub-moa.
     
  6. HM2Grunt

    HM2Grunt New Member

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    The_kid I have been using surplus Soviet block rounds because that is standard equipment for this kind of rifle, (and they are cheap) I have another sniper that I have fiber glassed and pillar bedded the receiver and stock, put on a Timney trigger,(I really like the safety) used a heavier, stiffer laminated stock and generally tried everything I have read and thought of to make it more accurate. I reload my own ammo. I don't have a chromo to determine what bullet speed the rifle likes yet, so I can't say the rounds are optimal, but it shoots good. Not 200-300yds good, but good. The 1930 rifle that I started this thread about is the one I wanted to see how good it would shoot "Old School", after getting all the "bells and whistles" out of my system with the first sniper. I still would like to know what others are getting for accuracy. I have seen the guy hitting the gong at 1000yds on You-tube, but I don't think he is shooting stock equipment. And I agree with you that the German Mauser was better. I have only a ZF sharp-shooter scope on my 98, and it shoots better that the Mosin with a four power scope, but the higher settings for range on it seem as hopeful as those on the Mosin.
     
  7. HM2Grunt

    HM2Grunt New Member

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    The_kid That's fine, but they are not the same animal, and I correct myself if I mislead, an 82 year old Mosin. The manufacturing of the Mosin is not even close to the Eddystone. The Mosin was cheap and fast to make, and I immagine that is why you could not touch an Eddystone for what a Mosin costs today. I envy your owning one. Oh, and I noticed that you tweaked your ammo from issue rounds.
     
  8. nitestalker

    nitestalker New Member

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    HM2, So true even though that Eddystone has a some what bad bore from the picture it should shoot OK. That said, 2 shots on a paper at any ranges proves nothing. If the shooter can provide 10 strings of 5 shot groups we would know how the Pattern 17 Rifle shoots?

    You are correct in your expectations of the Nagant. Outside of using a JB Lapping and maybe a little bedding of the action there is very little you can do to improve a $90 dollar rifle. I have no idea what the post refered to concerning hormonics and a military barrel laden with hand guards bayo lugs and other hardware. It is hard to make a Dump truck into an Indy car.:)
     
  9. HM2Grunt

    HM2Grunt New Member

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    nitestalker Thanks for you replies. You are right about a $90 rifle. For that much money, I only have to worry about hurting myself more than if I hurt the rifle by dinking around with ways to change a common, non-collectable. I am a frustrated gunsmith, retired, and have plenty of time to think, dink, and think about more ways to dink. I would truly like to be able to afford something like a Springfield, but I like to shoot big center fire, and the Mosin is so cheap to feed right now. And Mosins are fun to dink with.
     
  10. nitestalker

    nitestalker New Member

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    HM2 I just knew you were a professional gun hand. As we get older it becomes more easy to seperate the wheat from the chafe. I also like shooting things modern nations have thrown away. I have had better luck with the K-31 Swiss 7.62X55 rifle. These are so accurate and so easy to reload for and shoot. We have a 1,200 meter range gongs. It is a great place to shoot the old battle rifles.:)
     
  11. chloeshooter

    chloeshooter New Member

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    What do you expect out of a sub-$200 rifle? The Soviets were never known for their quality, my man. Plus snipers would go often hours between shots. I think your expectations aren't realistic for this gun......
     
  12. HM2Grunt

    HM2Grunt New Member

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    nitestalker Your must live out in God's country. Unfortunately around here our longest range is determined by distance to the next grain silo or hog lot, and we have farmers who will shoot back. Also unfortunate is the fact that we have a lot of knuckleheads who love the black rifle or the AK with gun training learned on TV, and are more interested in letting rounds go, than keeping them within the range. We have currently have a situation where a very nice range is being shaken up, and may be closed because an errant round hit a farm worker. Too bad too. We need to keep those neighbors on our side, and away from the anti's.
     
  13. HM2Grunt

    HM2Grunt New Member

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    chloeshooter My expectations may be too high, but right now I am trying to find out how far they are from the reality, oh, and did I say, I like to shoot, and most anything that is still made out of steel and wood, and from what I can see, a lot of them are under $200. If I find out the performance of my Mosin is not good, I will still like to hang it on the wall and wonder who the soviet grunt who last held it was, and what his situation was at the time. And, by the way, that $200 price is only inflation. The guns haven't changed. In 1972 I bought a 1903 Springfield for $150, mint. and it shot really good too, and .30-06 ammo was cheaper. Thought I had to have it because that is what we lugged in Boot camp. Wish I still had it. Enough memory lane.
     
  14. The_Kid

    The_Kid New Member

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    That is 3 shots, and yes it does; especially, when group after group consistently prints sub-moa.
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJ9WwQTGCZo"]Peep Sighted 30-06, Sub-Moa at 400 yards[/ame]

    Many firearm manufacturers provide a 3 shot group to with each rifle to "prove" they are of quality workmanship.

    Indeed, a 3 shot group speaks volumes!


    I provide every shot taken.... sift through the videos... to save time, here are the last 3 shots taken with the Eddystone.
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s84WfbyBxL8"]US Model of 1917 Eddystone, 3[/ame]
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCzJsZ6Z-eU"]US Model of 1917 Eddystone, 4[/ame]
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr13lzhjw-g"]M1917 Eddystone[/ame]

    I'm not wasting 50 shots, when 3 tells me what I need to know.

    So barrel harmonics are part of the physical world with the Eddystone...
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJGdzYL16lE&feature=plcp"]Eddystone Ladder Test[/ame]
    ...but those same physics are not present with the Mosin?

    Many will extend the bayonet to change the harmonics in an effort to shift POI to their favor. The Mosin is practically the poster child of barrel harmonics.
     
  15. The_Kid

    The_Kid New Member

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    Yes! I "tweaked [my] ammo;" this is why it shoots well.

    I've developed loads with pistols that shoot twice as good as your rifle.

    I mean you asked for help, but now you're giving-up... before you even try different ammo. To each their own.
     
  16. Old_Crow

    Old_Crow New Member

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    I have a 1930 Mosin Nagant 91/30. When I got the gun the action and barrel were in like new condition. Anyone who knows guns could tell this gun had never been issued. All the machine marks where the bolt handle turns and locks were still there. The rifling was like new in the barrel. It took several sessions of grinding and sanding to get the gun shooting on target.

    I shimmed the barrel with cork. Cleaning the barrel was the hardest part. I used several popular bore cleaners with no luck. Finally I soaked the barrel with WD40 and let it sit for a while. I cleaned it with a brush and ran more rags through it. While I was making headway I still wasn't making enough headway. Finally I soaked the barrel with WD40 and sprayed it again before firing it. WD40 is very flammable. I had no idea of what was going to happen when I fired the Mosin with all the WD40 in the barrel. So put on leather chaps and a leather coat and fired it from the hip while standing in the lake. I thought I had set the surface of the lake on fire but the crud was gone.

    I brought the gun home. I put a brass cleaning brush on a rod and went to it with a drill. I ran patches soaked with remoil through the barrel after the brush treatment. the third patch came out clean. I ran dry patches through the barrel until I removed as much remoil as possible.

    Time to test the mosin. At about 80 yards I hit a 6" green plastic spinner. I felt confident so I tried to set the spinner back straight by shooting it. I never managed to set the spinner back straight but I hit it the next 5 shots. All with the spinner leaning over so I had a much smaller target than 6" to shoot at. I am very happy with the last test session. The Mosin will go with me as a back up on my black bear hunt 11/10 thru 11/17.

    I hate to leave my Brownings at home but the prices better than ever and I plan to dump them after the world series is done interrupting gun auctions. We have so many local laws being passed restricting the use of rifles I hunt with a shotgun 90% of the time anyway.
     
  17. Trez

    Trez Well-Known Member

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    Your biggest problem is using the surplus ammo.... Its so inconsistent!! Bullet and charge weights can vary as much as a grain...

    From a Soviet Sniper manual- Where to wrap your Mosin 91/30 barrel to dampen the harmonics:
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2012
  18. nitestalker

    nitestalker New Member

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    Wrap a Nagant to make them more accurate? Don't you get the idea that the poor commies did not trust their governments junk? It sounds like when Setting Bull told the Sioux that there "Ghost shirts", would stop 45-70 rounds at Wounded Knee. How did that one work out?:eek:
     
  19. SSGN_Doc

    SSGN_Doc Well-Known Member

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    I played around with a mid war Mosin 91/30 that I bought, which had a cracked stock. I didn't know the stock was cracked behind the recoil lug until after shooting it and getting 6" groups at 100 yds. after reairing the stock with brass screws and epoxy, I decided there wasn't much point in keeping the stock original so I decided it was time to experiment with bedding methods. I tried the cork method and got down to 3" groups but experienced some of the walking issues you describe. So I went with some sheet metal shims, like the Finns used. Again I got down to just under 3" groups with less wandering of zero as it heated. Finally I epoxy bedded it. Got groups around 2.5 - 3" with less walking and wandering (but I had also sanded out the barrel channel and used some card stock under the barrel at the tip of the stock to get some up pressure by this time and found that this seemed to be a big improvement in the area of the groups wandering or opening up after heating the barrel. A

    At this point I tried different ammo. I found that Sellior & Bellot commercial as well as surplus Czech ammo had slighly larger diameter bullets that mic at about .3118. These tightend groups to 2 -2.25" at 100 yds. Brown Bear had a .312 diameter bullet and shot consisent 2" groups with one group at 1.5" out of a box of 20.

    So bullet diameter that is apporpriate for your bore can be a big player in tightening the groups. Hungarian heavy ball also shot well, but some Russian surplus and Bulgarian surplus wouldn't produce cosistent groups of less than 3".
     
  20. HM2Grunt

    HM2Grunt New Member

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    SSGN_Doc I have tried different things like you talk about, but I am not getting much improvement. When I sanded out the barrel channel, I noted that one side of the channel was pushing to the left on the barrel still. I have pretty much decided to give up on this stock as warped and shot. The experiment of seeing how good it will shoot with the original equipment and ammo may be over. I looked at and eventually bought a near new looking laminated stock that was set up to use my hex receiver. The rifle fits in the stock tight, and took more wiggling and jiggling to get it in than usual. So I am going to see what I can do with this tighter bedding. As for ammo, I have used some S&B and Czech, but wasn't impressive, although they are where I get my brass to reload. I bought some Soviet "heavies" and will try some, and pull the bullets on some to reload. I will try these changes one at a time and see what happens. Bought some 180 gr Nosler bullets to load up to try more consistant loadings than the Soviet, however the bullet is .308, and my not be optimal for the 1930 barrel. Will have to look for bigger as you suggest. I have to say that I am impressed with the results and multi media reports of same from The Kid. I would have to give him an "A" for presentation, how ever I am not shooting an Eddystone, but I am impressed by his one shot groups anyway. And Kid, I'm glade your pistol shooting is awsome too. You have missed the point, I had been trying to see how my Mosin would shoot, it having come right out of Russian "rehab", using surplus, Soviet, light ball, service rounds, and then tweaking it to improve accuracy with methods available to the Russian troops at the time. Now I will move on and try the more modern methods, and you know, it will still not shoot as good as your EDDYSTONE, but I have decided that I am not going to use your results, because it doesn't matter. My Mosin is not anEDDYSTONE
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2012