More Black with Bronze Phosphor Brush

Discussion in 'General Rifle Discussion' started by dexntex, Dec 5, 2013.

  1. dexntex

    dexntex New Member

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    I may be one of those guys who wears out a barrel by over-cleaning but when is enough enough? I can get clean patches even following a nylon brush but after running a bronze brush, things again turn black again, even after about 5 cycles of brush followed by a patch. And this is following only 10 rounds through the rifle. Do bronze brushes create a false positive? Is the brush slowly eroding to small particles that look black (brush has lost 0.010" in diameter after 91 strokes through the bore)? I know colloidal silver (small silver particles) are black even though the bulk metal is shiny. What are others experience with this? Do I need to keep scrubbing with the bronze brush until a following patch comes out clean? Thanks for any input.
     
  2. trip286

    trip286 New Member

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    You counted the strokes and measured your brush with a micrometer?

    And if a hard, solid chunk of metal can be blasted through a barrel at thousands of feet per second, I don't see how a brush could possibly harm it.

    Try ditching the brush and using a jag and patches, see if that doesn't clear up your problem.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2013

  3. dexntex

    dexntex New Member

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    Patches come out clean

    Try ditching the brush and using a jag and patches, see if that doesn't clear up your problem.[/QUOTE]

    I do use a jag and patches in between the brush strokes. Everything comes out clean until I use the bronze brush again.

     
  4. Axxe55

    Axxe55 The Apocalypse Is Coming.....

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    i think you are over thinking the situation. the brush is made of bronze and bronze is much softer than hardened barrel steel. i seriously doubt your brush is doing any wearing of the rifle bore.

    the cleaning brushes are typically a little larger than the bore they ae designed to be cleaning. after a while they will deform to the bore size when they have been used enough. the tight brush, plus bore solvent are what clean the barrel. i replace my bore brushes on a regular basis. they wear out.

    nylon brushes are for specialized bore solvents that will deteriorate bronze or brass bore brushes. if you are not using the type of solvent they require, then you are not doing any real cleaning. i use nylon brushes as well with the proper bore solvents for them.

    you need to get a book on proper gun cleaning and maintenance and read up on cleaning the bore of a gun.
     
  5. dexntex

    dexntex New Member

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    Still wondering

    I appreciate all the comments guys but can anyone answer the question? Do bronze brushes cause the following patches to be black even from a clean bore or is the brush still removing powder residue? Do you all clean until patches come out white even following a bronze brush or do you give your barrels a few swipes with brushes and patches and call it quits..
     
  6. Mercator

    Mercator Active Member

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    No. Bronze brushes do not cause the patches to turn black. It comes from the carbon fouling. Bronze bristles pick it up better from the bore grooves. At some point trying to make the bore surgically clean no longer makes practical sense. Consider using bronze brushes from the beginning, not wasting time with nylon. For normal fouling about 5 wet brush cycles followed by the patches is enough.

    Some manufacturers supply nylon brushes with the new guns. They are good for polygonal barrels (Glock) and less effective in most barrels.

    Bronze brushes may cause false positives for copper fouling, when copper solvents are used. The discoloration is green or blue, but not black.
     
  7. trip286

    trip286 New Member

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    I haven't personally had this problem, but I have polished metals. I always end up cleaning off a black or gray residue.

    If you're getting clean patches and your bore looks good, then why keep cleaning? You don't have to get down to the molecular level here.

    This stuff, which I doubt amounts to much, right? Is likely residue that's coming off the softer of the two metals-your brush, which it sounds like that's kinda what you suspected. (or it could be what that guy ´|` said)

    You WILL NOT wear your barrel out by over cleaning. And there's a difference between meticulous and compulsive. I think you may be getting into the territory of the latter.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2013
  8. Axxe55

    Axxe55 The Apocalypse Is Coming.....

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    the powder residue comes out pretty easily in most cases. the black is usually the copper residue reacting with the bore solvent. sometimes it can be green or grey in color.

    it's not clean until the patches come out clean after brushing with a bore solvent. the number of rifle bores that people think are clean might suprise you. you keep keep brushing and running patches with solvent until they come out clean. this will vary from rifle to rifle, also depending on the bullets fired through the rifle and the number of shots between cleanings.

    i have bought rifles used where i have spent a couple of hours running brushes and patches to get the bore clean.
     
  9. dexntex

    dexntex New Member

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    Looks like the reactions are pretty mixed so the discussion is very interesting. For those as compulsive as I am (I can't disagree with you trip286 but I like to think of it as thorough), here's more food for thought for those with the patience to think it through.

    I spend about 3 hours cleaning, running about 5 stokes with a bronze brush, then wipe the brush with a paper towel. I follow with 3 to 5 patches of Hoppe's No. 9 letting the solvent soak in the barrel for a while between patches. I repeat this about 5 times. Patches come out clean. But each time I return to the brush, things turn black again, not green or blue. I tried a nylon brush just to see if it generated black like the bronze brush. It didn't. So, is the bore clean? Probably clean enough according to trip286 and he is probably right. But he also points out that, after polishing metals, he always wipes off a black or gray residue. So, is the bronze brush polishing the barrel, or vice-versa, and generating the black? He says that the residue is likely coming from the brush and I have read elsewhere that bronze brushes can give false positives, maybe for copper though and not carbon. Yes, trip286, what I am wondering is whether the black can be residue not related to a dirty barrel but rather from abrasion. Or is the bore still dirty like Axxe55 suggests. Do I need more hours of cleaning as he suggests because, according to him, powder residue comes out pretty easily and the patches should come out clean even after brushing. That makes sense too. But, Axxe55 you say some things that are confusing (not a criticism, just questions trying to figure this out). You say the black is usually copper residue reacting with the bore solvent and it it sometimes gray or green. Reaction products between ammonia and copper are blue or green. I don't think they could be black. Also, if this reaction is occurring, how do you get your patches to come out clean? Mercator also says that bronze brushes don't cause the patches to turn black. It's the carbon fouling.

    So, maybe the debate continues. If you get black patches after brushing even after meticulous cleaning, is there still carbon in the barrel and it is still dirty OR is the barrel clean and the black come from the brush, probably from abrasion or polishing, not from a chemical reaction? I don't want to be compulsive. I just want to clean the barrel until it's clean and quit when it is. Any other comments? Anyone else want to let us know their experience?
     
  10. ctshooter

    ctshooter New Member

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    When polishing metals you often end up with the base metals color on your rag, or polishing cloth. Perfect example is when you polish aluminum you end up with black.... Cause aluminum is black as ore.
     
  11. Axxe55

    Axxe55 The Apocalypse Is Coming.....

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    it could be powder residue or lead or copper. lots of it depends on the bore solvent used. i get black on my batches and sometimes grey and sometimes green or blue in color. but until those patches come out clean, IMO, it's still dirty.

    like i said, it varies. depends on a lot of variables, such as the bullets shot. the number of shots between cleanings, the powders used in the ammo, the rifle bore itself and many other things.

    let me ask this, how new is the rifle and approximately how many rounds have been shot throughit if you have an idea?

    if the rifle is new and not many shots have been fired through it, the barrel is still breaking in to some degree and polishing itself. the smoother the bore, as a general rule is much easier to clean.
     
  12. trip286

    trip286 New Member

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    If this is your normal routine, I'm sure you're getting it clean. Did you buy the rifle new? I bought a Mosin Nagant 91/30 once that never produced a clean patch. Since then, I've heard the condition of that bore referred to as a "sewer pipe". I call BS. I work in water supply, and I get to watch sewer clean outs pretty often (I ain't doing it, not in my job description. I do CLEAN water, not sewer). Sewer pipes are cleaner than the bore of my old Mosin, but it was accurate as hell.

    If this is a new rifle, and you're following this routine, you should be getting it plenty clean. Just remember, wet, brush, swab, dry, light oil, and you should be good if your rifle is producing clean patches after that. Could you possibly get it cleaner? Hell yeah, there's no such thing as perfect.

    Also think of this: carbon "bleeds" from metal sometimes. I've cleaned machine guns to white glove inspection standards many, MANY times, only to have the chamber and inside of the receiver coated in black the next time I draw it out of the armory. An NO, it wasn't being used by someone else between my conjugal visits with my hunny. It's just the nature of the beast.

    How many rounds are you shooting in a session?
     
  13. ColdIron44

    ColdIron44 New Member

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    Dex, if I'm understanding your dilemma, and I may not be, I would suspect that your bronze bristled brush is the culprit. You are an overzealous cleaner, nothing wrong with that, but you've probably run those bristles through ALOT of carbon fouling, and I suspect that when you run your dirty brush through your clean bore, you are redepositing some of the carbon fouling you just removed. My guess is that's why the next patch comes out black. So try this, run your brush through a dirty bore, then firmly run your finger against the bristles under a light. That dust you see flying off the bristles is the fouling you're trying to remove. Maybe cleaning the brush off with aerosolized brake cleaner in between passes might be an answer for you. That or investing in a bore scope. Even if you never see that perfectly white patch, I think your bore is probably fine.

    Good luck!
     
  14. primer1

    primer1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I've got my money on this ^^^^
     
  15. Mercator

    Mercator Active Member

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    An excellent point too. You don't go back in with a dirty brush. I rinse it with a blast of 90% alcohol or Gun Scrubber.
     
  16. Axxe55

    Axxe55 The Apocalypse Is Coming.....

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    good point about the clean brush. somethings we do automatically and such a small detail that i overlooked in mentioning. i use a spray bottle with a degreaser in for cleaning my brush between brushings.
     
  17. Artbrownsr

    Artbrownsr Well-Known Member Lifetime Supporter

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    You beat me to it! It has GOT TO BE the brush is no longer as clean as thought, and leaving residue.
     
  18. John_Deer

    John_Deer New Member

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    You are more likely to wear out a barrel with a nylon brush than a bronze brush. I have seen monofilament fishing line cut through ceramic rod eyes that are hard enough to cut steel.
     
  19. Mercator

    Mercator Active Member

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    That said, more brushing with a clean brush after a clean patch will still pick up some black. There is no exact recipe for all guns at all times. Everyone's routine is a mix of experience and beliefs.
     
  20. therewolf

    therewolf New Member

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    IME, keep that shiny new bore clean. Trying to clear it later sucks.

    Used rifles, clear the soot, use your solvents,patches, brushes,etc.

    I always use a lot of oil to cleanse between solvents, cleaners, and

    pastes, and light oil on a barrel going for more shooting, heavy oil on a

    barrel for storage.

    One thing which causes me less sleepless nights is ATF.

    Sponge in the red, let it soak till you can get back to it,

    then run a patch or five. Oil, oil, oil.