More advice... free and worth every penny

Discussion in 'Concealed Carrying & Personal Protection' started by speezack, Jan 28, 2016.

  1. speezack

    speezack New Member Supporter

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    I have carried for at least 30 years... I am not LE or affiliated with any gov. agency... I am retired now but was a business owner who carried for personal protection.

    I am still a licensed bail bondsman and PI in Virginia and have been around guns in general and concealed carry weapons for many years... however, I do not know it all and do not profess to know it all... I have opinions like we all do and this is my take on conceal carry, choosing a weapon, etc....

    Look, handle and try to shoot a variety of firearms before you buy... even after you buy, you will probably always see something in a gun shop somewhere that just flips your trigger and you just got to have it... and you will likely end up with more than one carry gun.. that's fine... just practice plenty and join a good club that can help you learn more than just basically shooting at paper... IDPA is a good start.. google that and read ... I won't spend a lot of time on it... you can find all you need to on the net... IDPA... "International Defensive Pistol Association"

    As to caliber... I say, choose the largest that you can manage... keep this thought in mind... even a little .22 short is better than the largest round available if you can shoot it accurately and control the gun ... remember... the .22 caliber round has probably killed more people on this planet than most any other.... maybe second behind the 7.62... although I'm not so sure... IE: the current US military round is a 5.56... which is a .22 caliber round... the world renown AK-47 is a 7.62... (.30 cal.)...

    Stopping power is certainly important... however... once you get above the .38 cal... I really think it may be a moot point (I am sure that will cause an uproar) but again keep this is mind... the .45 was developed to increase stopping power and the difference between the .38 and the .45 in the overall scheme of things is not as significant as you might imagine... .38, .357, 9mm, .380, .40, .41, .45, 10mm.... all can get the job done in the right situation... just depends on how well you can manage the gun and that is a personal thing that only you can do through a "touchy/feely" experience...

    I do have my opinions on the brand of guns but here, I will not name one... just leave it up to you to check out all brands and choose for yourself... S&W, Ruger, Colt, Springfield, Remington, Glock, Taurus... so many, .... I will say this... for what it is worth, Glock has a really great reputation as one of the best on the market... I do not own a Glock... no particular reason... just don't like the way it feels in my hands... just personal preference... and that is why I advocate the 'touchy/feely' thing.

    Most modern firearms manufactured today are of good quality.. some better than other however... you just have to look and ask and take all the advice... lump it together and make your own choice.

    I am of the opinion that accuracy is more important than caliber... that is why I advocate practice in situations that provide something other than paper... again... IDPA.. check them out. :computer:
     
  2. towboater

    towboater Active Member

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  3. speezack

    speezack New Member Supporter

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    Related to accuracy and caliber... and of course luck... you have to have Lady Luck on your side in any situation... bar none...

    example I like to tell...

    There is the story of the Indian mother (may have been an Alaskan Eskimo, not really sure)... anyway, she was in the woods picking berries with her little 'papoose' on her back... she had a weapon with her... a little .22 single shot rifle that she carried just in case... for what, I have no idea... however... as the story goes...

    ... a very large and apparently bad natured Brown bear happened to wander into her area and began approaching her and her baby.... she backed up and aimed the little .22 rifle in a meager defense.... assuming the worst...

    She waited until the bear was within a few steps of her and she pulled the trigger on the little rifle... as Lady Luck would have it... the little .22 round entered the bears eye and penetrated his brain... killing him instantly...

    Now this story has been told in many outdoor magazines over the years but the moral of this tale... true or not... is simple... it puts forth a very good and factual point.

    ... "Accuracy is always more important than caliber"

    The largest handgun caliber will serve you not... if you cannot hit the target... so my advice, as always is.... practice and shoot the largest caliber you can accurately handle and hit with... even if it is only a little .22 short... you are far better off with that little gun than the largest on the market when you can hit what you aim at... and can control...

    period.................. :pistol:
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2016
  4. artbrownsr

    artbrownsr Forum Chaplain Lifetime Supporter

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    The moral of the story is exactly as it should be but in this case the reality is that an EYE SHOT on a BROWN BEAR is ineffective in mortally wounding a Brown Bear the eye does NOT HAVE A DIRECT PATH THROUGH THE SKULL THAT WOULD ALLOW A BULLET TO PASS that was less than .50 caliber:
    http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...=QBILPG&pq=brown+bear+skull&sc=6-16&sp=-1&sk=
    Check out this set of Brown bear skull images NOTICE eye socket and position of brain (low in the rear). A better shot would be through the nostril maybe 1/4 inch of bone versus 1 1/2 inch and with luck you hit the top of the brain!
     
  5. hardluk1

    hardluk1 Active Member

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    speezack Sound like a basic common sense approach to firearms and control of them !
     
  6. speezack

    speezack New Member Supporter

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    May have been through the nose... I think the story said eye but sounds like you know your stuff and I was only repeating for effect.... thanks for the info... if I ever encounter a Brown Bear... I will try to shoot him through his nose.... but only after he catches me.. and that may not happen since he would find the path rather slippery.... :crazy::crazy::crazy:

    The only bear I have every taken was with a .50 black powder and it was just behind his right front shoulder... he hit the ground immediately, thank goodness, although I don't think Black Bears are near as aggressive as those big Brown ones... of which we have none here in Virginia....
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2016
  7. artbrownsr

    artbrownsr Forum Chaplain Lifetime Supporter

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    We have several threads on Brown Bear defense and tactics of which I have contributed info. HOWEVER your concept of accuracy over caliber has lots of merit AS LONG as the caliber has enough power behind it to enter into a vital area, and do the job!

    Also Speezack the statement I made to you on another thread pokes back at me too! " We don't believe the old timers all the time!"
     
  8. speezack

    speezack New Member Supporter

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    Most definitely... I was having a conversation with a total novice about calibers and was trying to explain that although the .380, 9mm, .357 and .38 all had basically the same diameter bullet or projectile... there was a marked difference in how fast and hard they hit the target... he also had a difficult time believing that the current issued military weapon was basically a hopped up .22... :peepwall:
     
  9. Donn

    Donn Active Member

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    You lost all credibility with me when you referred to the 5.56 as a "hopped up 22." The 22 magnum is a hopped up 22.
     
  10. Dallas53

    Dallas53 Well-Known Member

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    have to agree, since the 5.56 has about ten times the energy and almost three times the velocity, the only thing they share in common is the diameter of the bore, and even that is debatable.
     
  11. RJF22553

    RJF22553 Well-Known Member

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    In the context of speezak's discussion to a novice about calibers, it was primarily about caliber/diameters, but pointed out there was a marked difference in energy/power. I suspect in the course of the conversation about bullet diameters, he also pointed out the military's current round is .223 in diameter: roughly 3/1000 of an inch larger in diameter than a .22. I have no doubt he explained the dramatic difference in power, but was just pointing out that the novice couldn't get his head around the similarity of the bullet diameter. In that respect regarding specifically to bullet diameter, the .223/5.56 is a hopped up .22. Give him some credit!
     
  12. Donn

    Donn Active Member

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    No, the OP's talking down to all of us, not just the novice.
     
  13. RJF22553

    RJF22553 Well-Known Member

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    I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I certainly didn't read it that way.
     
  14. speezack

    speezack New Member Supporter

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    ... the diameter of the bore is all I was basically referring to...

    Guys.... "hopped up .22" is exactly what a 5.56 is.... I was simply referring to the 'basic' diameter of the bullet... to someone that probably wouldn't grasp the logic of energy/velocity/power... and all the rest.... and I stand by my statement... it is absolutely a "hopped up" .22 caliber bullet... certainly with much more e/v/p... but still as close to a .22 in other respects.

    I also reload and .223; .220 swift; 5.56 are all "basically" .22 rounds, with major differences in ballistics... .223 is civilian ammo that is loaded to a lower pressure and is governed by a different set of standards than the military... 5.56 is military and is supposed to be loaded to a higher pressure for obvious reasons... there are enumerable versions of .22 caliber rounds that adjustments in the case have given birth to... but bullet diameter is very close, although as you pointed out ... there are slight differences just as there are slight differences in diameter of the other example I used.... .380/9mm/.357/.38... all basically .38 caliber rounds... but certainly major differences in ballistics.

    I think these websites might provide some good data for anyone that might be interested: http://www.thegunzone.com/556dw.html
    http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223/

    ... added a little later...

    I might mention that I only have 2 rifles that might have problems with the differences in ammo... I have an older Ruger Mini14 and a new Colt M4... Ruger posted an article some years ago... I am looking for it now... stating that it is safe to shoot .223 or 5.56 in their Mini14... I don't know about the Colt but I would think since .223 is loaded to lower pressures it may be ok... although I have only shot 5.56 in mine... and will continue.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2016
  15. Dallas53

    Dallas53 Well-Known Member

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    i'm sorry but I have to disagree. to say a 223 or 5.56 are just "hopped up" 22's is rather misleading, especially to those who are novices to learning about guns and ammo. other than a close resemblance is bore diameter that they share, nothing else do they share in common.

    they share no commonality other that a close resemblance in bore size. one is a rimfire cartridge, the other two are centerfire cartridges. they generate almost three times the velocity, and over ten times the energy levels. using your logic, I could do a comparison between a Corvette and Pinto and come up with more commonality between them than your comparison of a 22lr and a 5.56. both the Corvette and the Pinto have four tires and wheels, both have an internal combustion engine and transmission and both will get you from point "A" to point "B".

    and the differences in the 223 vs. the 5.56 are not just the pressure levels they are loaded to, because if you had learned, you would know that the chambers between the two are cut differently. a NATO chamber leade is longer than a commercial 223 chamber leade. which is why 223 ammo can be used in 5.56 NATO chambered firearms, but is not recommended using 5.56 ammo in 223 commercial chamberings. and also if you had learned, 5.56 NATO ammo is measured by different methods that 223 commercial ammo, so ther in itself lies a lot of the speculations in pressure differences.

    and I have for myself debunked the theory of 5.56 cases are thicker and heavier that 223 cases by weighing them and measuring case volume. the differences either none or negligible from what I found out years ago. the differences where the chambers and the powders or the powder charges that brought the 5.56 ammo to a higher pressure.
     
  16. RJF22553

    RJF22553 Well-Known Member

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    All Mini-14s except the Target Rifle and Minis sold in the UK are chambered for 5.56mm. It says so in the manual. The reason the earlier Minis were stamped .223 Rem is subject to debate, but most assume there were some stinkin' lawyers involved... The Target Rifle is .223 Rem only, and the UK Minis are chambered for .222 because of a ban on using military ammo. I don't know of any 5.56-chambered rifle that won't handle .223 Rem safely.
     
  17. speezack

    speezack New Member Supporter

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    I could do a comparison between a Corvette and Pinto and come up with more commonality between them than your comparison of a 22lr and a 5.56. both the Corvette and the Pinto have four tires and wheels, both have an internal combustion engine and transmission and both will get you from point "A" to point "B".

    (... BTW... I only said .22.... not .22lr.... one is caliber, the other is a specific round.)

    ... but both are classified as "automobiles"... and that is all I have said throughout this entire thread.... Caliber period... and in that context only... they are in fact .22's.... you all are arguing semantics... ballistics is another classification that I did not apply to my description... "hopped up" is exactly what it says... I could also say that the Corvette contains a "hopped up" internal combustion engine... which it does... as the Pinto contains exactly the same basic engine... although certainly less "hopped up".

    Apply the same logic to Arnold Schwarzenegger and Wally Cox... Arnold is a "hopped up" Wally Cox... but they are both Homo Sapiens.... and in that light.... a 5.56 and a .223 are both..... 22 caliber !!!!!!:beatingdeadhorse::beatingdeadhorse: :pot stirrer::popcorn:
     
  18. speezack

    speezack New Member Supporter

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    I don't know of any 5.56-chambered rifle that won't handle .223 Rem safely.

    ...and that is because the .223 is loaded as a civilian round and falls under the guidelines of the rules set by SAAMI... while the 5.56 is loaded to a higher ballistic for military use and is not set under the same set of guidelines... thus, you shouldn't have a problem shooting .223 ammo in a firearm classified as a 5.56 weapon... but the reverse may or may not be a problem... probably not under today's standards... but there is still a difference.:puk:
     
  19. speezack

    speezack New Member Supporter

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    Nope, Donn, your wrong on that note... I was only talking to the novices... very simply trying to give a short ball part description related to caliber... not ballistics... just caliber...

    I would never profess to tell anyone on a Gun Site like this... anything related to firearms... all else is only my opinion... and in that light... :puk:
     
  20. Dallas53

    Dallas53 Well-Known Member

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    most people who use the term 22 are usually referring to a 22 rimfire, and it seems as I wasn't the only one who surmised that from the context that you used in that post.

    and it was in my opinion a poor way of making a description of a cartridge to a novice. it was totally misleading and gave off the wrong information.