MOA definition and precision rifle

Discussion in 'General Rifle Discussion' started by Sibil, Dec 7, 2013.

  1. Sibil

    Sibil New Member

    50
    0
    0
    When the rifle says 1 MOA precision means 1" of diameter where you are targeting or 1" of radius(2" diameter) where you are targeting from 100 yds?
     
  2. SSGN_Doc

    SSGN_Doc Well-Known Member

    6,929
    72
    48
    To keep it simple, it means the repeatable mechanical precision should mean points of impact 1" apart from the center of the impact to the next center of impact.

    If a rifle shot a 1 MOA group at 100 meters the centers of all of the holes would be no further apart than 1" away from the center of any other hole.

    At 200 meters they would be no further than 2" apart from center to center. At 50 meters, no further than 1/2" from center to center.
     

  3. Sibil

    Sibil New Member

    50
    0
    0
    Thank you, what happen if I have a rifle (a Rem 700 police) that is not shooting 1 MOA from benchrest should I consider other options than mechanical that provoke inaccurate shooting?
     
  4. Txhillbilly

    Txhillbilly Well-Known Member

    4,444
    45
    48
    There are so many variables as to why your rifle didn't shoot moa. The scope/rings/base/stock/ammo shot/and of coarse the shooter. You also have to account for the type of rest your shooting off of.
    If the ammo that your shooting is a known moa or better shooting ammo from your rifle,then you can start subtracting things as the root cause. Check the scope rings and bases for correct torque settings,make sure your scope is good,scopes can go bad all of a sudden especially if they are of low quality. Check the torque settings on your action screws.
    If everything with the rifle/ammo are good,it will come down to either the style/type of rest your shooting from,or just plain shooter error.
     
  5. SSGN_Doc

    SSGN_Doc Well-Known Member

    6,929
    72
    48
    Tex, gave some good explanations. Just start ticking off different variables that he listed.

    Also, was the rifle pre-owned? How many rounds through it? Has the bore been cleaned with a copper solvent if its had a high round count? Any visible damage at the crown of the muzzle? Action/mounting screws torqued properly? Barrel still floated properly? Action bedding still good?

    What ammo were you shooting?

    How experienced are you at rifle shooting? Do you shoot MOA with other rifles? With the same ammo?

    But he's definitely spot on about checking the scope and mounts and rings as one of the first things. Many a scope that was improperly mounted or just plain broke or junk, has accounted for a rifle that won't shoot tight groups.

    I had an old milsurp rifle with a stock that was cracked behind the front action mounting screw. Shot something on the order of 10-12" patterns at 100 yds. After fixing the stock it was down to 2-3" groups. Pretty good for a rifle with as ugly of a bore as this one had.

    Best of luck to you. Keep us posted on your progress and what you find out.
     
  6. Mercator

    Mercator Active Member

    11,342
    16
    38
    You need a heavyweight vise, not just any benchrest, to rule out mechanical imprecision. There are many variables other than the shooter, including barrel heating up, fouling, and of course the ammo. Just don't get too hung up on group sizes. The first (and maybe second) shot accuracy may be a better measure. Jeff Cooper, I think, wrote about that.
     
  7. sandog

    sandog Member

    601
    9
    18
    Sibil, a heavy barrel Remington, with a decent scope, good ammo and someone that can shoot, should do 1/2 MOA or slightly better. This is a group from my Rem. SPS varmint .308 with one of the first handloads I tried in it. 5 shots at 100 yards, I pulled one out of the group. The SPS is a cheaper version of the Police ( cheaper stock). And another forum members group, same SPS Varmint in .308, but he had put a laminated stock on it and was shooting factory loads, Federal Gold Medal Match. He also pulled one out or they would have all been touching. Just find some ammo your rifle shoots good with and practice a lot.
     

    Attached Files:

  8. Sibil

    Sibil New Member

    50
    0
    0
    This is my rifle:
    Rem700 Police, no trigger job, 1-12" twist
    Leupold Rings
    Nightforce Scope 8-32x56 Benchrest
    Bench rest Harris Bipod 6"-9"

    Rear Bag: Edgewood

    Solvents:
    Sweets 7.62 solvent first then I use Batch Bore Shine solvent at the end I use Kroil.

    Bullets:
    Sierra Matchking BTHP Gold Medal Match 168 grains

    I have tried to buy the best for the rifle. But cant find the best precision for it.
     
  9. Sibil

    Sibil New Member

    50
    0
    0
    I bought the rifle new. I have shoots like 350+ bullets.
     
  10. Sibil

    Sibil New Member

    50
    0
    0
    This is a old pic. Before I bought the edgewood.
     

    Attached Files:

  11. Txhillbilly

    Txhillbilly Well-Known Member

    4,444
    45
    48
    Your rifle might not like shooting that bullet. If you can try some different,and maybe some lighter match grade bullets,it might wake up for you.
    I don't shoot factory ammo out of my rifles,I handload for each one,and I can find out just what each one likes to shoot.
     
  12. SSGN_Doc

    SSGN_Doc Well-Known Member

    6,929
    72
    48
    What size groups are you getting? Do you shoot prone with the bipod? Do you shoot any better with any other rifle? Have you tried any different loads?

    There is some technique in prone shooting, as well as in shooting with a bipod. Every pressure point or contact point with the rifle has to be the same from shot to shot. Tension against the bipod, breathing, cheek weld, eye distance to the scope etc. Also each rifle may have its own ammo preference. Differences in groups from 3" bests to 1" bests have been seen personally, just in a change in factory loadings. Improvements to under an inch with handloads have been seen after that.
     
  13. hkhunter

    hkhunter New Member

    108
    0
    0
    Try some Federal 150 gr psp. I have the same rifles, with a Millett 4x16 scope and it shoots 3/8" groups at 100 yds consistently in 308
     
  14. chloeshooter

    chloeshooter Active Member

    2,565
    0
    36
    How long are you waiting between shots? What is the best grouping you have ever achieved with ANY rifle?
     
  15. sandog

    sandog Member

    601
    9
    18
    If he isn't getting good groups with Federal Gold Medal Match, I doubt that the cheaper deer hunting loads will do better. Either improvement in technique, or work up a hand load with a Match bullet, or both.
     
  16. JonM

    JonM Moderator

    20,110
    19
    38
    have someone else who is normally a good shot shoot it. that rules out user error. when i have issues with a rifle i find someone willing to shoot the thing. this rules out me having a bad day or a series of bad days and blaming the tools.

    check to make sure the stock isnt touching the barrel take a piece of paper and slide it around the barrel then have someone run it up and down the barrel WHILE you are in a normal firing position doing what you would normal be doing with the normal amount of pressure on the rifle.

    if it is binding while in firing position but not while its just sitting there the stock is an issue, maybe not the only one. remington isnt known for good stocks.

    second. are the action screws torqued evenly and to about about 50-60 inch pounds?? if not or you dont know you need a wheeler FAT wrench for properly torquing action screws. most rifle companies dont bother torquing and just slap the screws in so the pieces look like a rifle.

    is the scope mounted properly and torqued to spec?? including the bases?? see above. if you diy'd it without using a inch pound torque wrench or dont know 100% for sure the smith who installed it did, its not.

    1-12" twist will shoot 168bthp fine so its liekly one of the things above.
     
  17. gunnut07

    gunnut07 New Member

    944
    0
    0
    This I agree with.

    Many times Remington puts pressure pads at the end of the stock. I know my VLS, VSSF, and a few others all have them.

    If this is the police model it has a H-S Precision stock on it. They are a quality stock even if they are backed up by a child murderer.

    This is also something I agree with.

    apples and oranges for me. I mount many of my own scopes. You don't need to be a gunsmith to mount a scope. I would be more worried about the mounts. Is it a one piece or a 2 piece? It looks from the picture that you have a 1 piece rail. What make is the rail?

    I prefer Badger Ord for my rails. I also like their rings I will also use Leupold Mk4 rings.

    168 to 175gr should shoot good.

    One thing that I see right now is that you have a HUGE scope is there any part of the scope touching the rifle other than the rings? It looks really close to the barrel. Also you have the benchrest Nightforce. They are not nearly as tough as the NSX scopes. What power are you using when shooting? at 32x even a slight amount of heat can cause heat waves in the scope making it hard to be precise in your shot placement.
     
  18. Sibil

    Sibil New Member

    50
    0
    0
    At the beginning I was getting no more than 1.5 from center but I notice that I have shot like 500+ bullet with the rifle and is shooting worse, like bullet can be 5 inches apart from center and then shoot another bullet 1/4in from center. I still have all the cases. I shoot prone when I am 300yd and 600yd and I get good result from it. Here in Puerto Rico I have limited options of match ammo the only match ammo I can find is the federal.

    I don't know how long I take between shots but I take my time to shoot each bullet. That the only high power rifle I have.

    The gunsmith that sell me the rifle also screw it the rings with his instruments I think he screw it with 60 inch-pound. The base ring is one piece.

    The scope does not touch the barrel is like 3/8 inch from the barrel.


    When I shoot in prone the precision is acceptable but in benchrest is horrible.
     
  19. Mercator

    Mercator Active Member

    11,342
    16
    38
    That's a strong case for an operator error.
     
  20. therewolf

    therewolf New Member

    8,409
    5
    0
    In simple terms, at 100 paces, if you can put the shots on target,

    and cover them with a quarter, that's @ MOA.

    As to rifle issues, apparently the rifle barrel must

    be lightly fouled, in most cases, for optimum accuracy.

    Accuracy starts to degrade with a lead or copper-washed

    barrel.

    What is your cleaning paradigm? Have you noticed any increase

    in muzzle blast, recently? At 350+ shots, depending on the cleaning process,

    you could have a copper-fouled barrel.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2013