Mo. Man at CPL class shoots self/dies

Discussion in 'Training & Safety' started by Car54, Mar 11, 2011.

  1. Car54

    Car54 New Member

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  2. doctherock

    doctherock New Member

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    Well its safe to say he wont make that mistake again. May God rest his soul....
     

  3. willshoum

    willshoum New Member

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    Retards

    Sad that this expert instructer didn't know didly about fire arms.........
     
  4. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    Man. I hate to see these stories. :(

    Doing 90% of things "right" when handling a weapon is not enough.

    And with a Browning Hi Power? Really?! :(:(:confused:
     
  5. bstew324

    bstew324 New Member

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    too bad...needed better supervision
     
  6. gruntpain1775

    gruntpain1775 New Member

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    There are several things that are wrong with this whole situation. The first the type of training the Instructor was giving.

    I'm an Instructor for the NRA, A State Instructor for the CCW class here and I did a metric ton of Instructing in the military. So that's my background on the Instructing realm.

    The Instructor should have not been teaching something a little more advanced like this is. A CCW class is there to teach you the laws regarding the carry of a weapon, the safe manipulation of a weapon, the basics of guns and gun handling and the basics of shooting.

    Once a person has been instructed in the basics of firearm use and is proficient at it, then you can advance to more complicated things like drawing and shooting with a non-dominant hand. The Instructor should not have been doing this. There should have been more close supervision as well.

    An preventable thing that could have been avoided had the Instructor not tried to be a super tacticool firearms Instructor. You teach to the level of the class. Not teach to the level of yourself.
     
  7. M14sRock

    M14sRock New Member

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    I only know one way to learn how to do something, and that is to do it. Then do it a bunch of times. And finally do it some more.

    And I have no problem with an instructor teaching students techniques for weak hand shooting and manipulation.

    In this case, I wonder if the Hi Power had the small safety, instead of the extended safety? Those little safeties are not easy to disengage, even with the right thumb. At 63, the student might not have had the dexterity to manipulate his HP with his weak hand, and he was probably going faster than he should have.

    Maybe the instructor should have kept a closer eye on this student, knowing he was using a pistol that he was not as familiar with, but anything we say here is just Monday morning quarterbacking.
     
  8. gruntpain1775

    gruntpain1775 New Member

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    I have no problem teaching people techniques either. But there is a time and place for it, especially something like weak hand draw. A CCW class is not one of them. In a class like that, you have the full gambit of people. You have people who have never touched a gun before, and then you have people who can do things with a gun that Hollywood can't dream up.

    This is when you have to look at the purpose and intent of a class like the CCW. The purpose is to provide training (granted, it's forced by the state and I don't agree with it) to people so they can get a CCW. Nothing more, nothing less. The intent is to provide them with education and training on the SAFE handling of a pistol and BASIC firearms training required to get your CCW license.

    Now, if you want to go about giving people a more advance class where weak side shooting is involved, fine. At least then you can guage/turn away people who may not be ready for that or bring them in and work with them closely. A class where you don't know individual experience like a CCW...bad idea. Even at more advance courses you don't start doing something like that until the 2nd day and beyond, unless you have a class of people you know are advanced.
     
  9. M14sRock

    M14sRock New Member

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    We do not know the extent of this CCW class, or the experience level of the shooters attending. You are assuming that the students were inexperienced, and are making judgments based on that assumption. I think it is irresponsible to criticize the methodology of the class without knowing the details.

    At the end of the day, you may be right. But, based upon the information in that news story, there is not enough information to make accusations about the quality and level of instruction.
     
  10. wmille01

    wmille01 New Member

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    similar thing happened in a class I was taking on tactical shooting, one guy I rather heavy guy i might add was switching to his side arm and put a round straight through his foot. He had just bought his gun that morning, the main thing is accidents happen. It's very sad but it was an accident, probably could have been avoided but it happens.
     
  11. gruntpain1775

    gruntpain1775 New Member

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    First, let me say that I'm not trying to be a jerk and argue my point as absolute. I'm not, I do like a healthy debate though!:D And I realize I'm the "new guy" here and my last intention is to anger folks here or irk folks. Just want to make that known. I don't know the dynamics here so I don't want to overstep my bounds here.I'm just giving my opinion, and according to my wife that's just something I can keep to myself:D

    As for the conversation here, your right. We don't don't the level of training here that the folks on the range that day had.

    What we do know is what is required for the class. It must teach safe handling, cleaning and storage of a firearm and show proficiency by firing 50 rounds and shooting 20 rounds of record fire at a target.

    If that is all that is required, then why add more? Sure, you can go above an beyond, but I would argue that you would need to bill the course as such and let it be known that it may not be the course for someone who isn't proficient at the basics.

    And if that is what he did, then fine. The shooter should have known his limitations and practiced more maybe. The instructor should have mitigated the risk better, We could go on and on. Yes it's monday morning QBing, but it's also an opportunity to learn from an After Action Review on the training. Learn from mistakes.

    Now, in the Instructors defense, the Sheriff OKed the training as required by law. This is something he should have thought about longer. Probably not a good idea. Seasoned shooters have a hard time drawing and firing from their weak side, and you want possible new comers to do it? Bad idea.

    Anyway, That's my opinion on the matter. I would like to know how manipulating a safety (with either hand) gets a gun turned almost 180 degrees so you shoot yourself in the chest. Then again, older gent, could have had arthritis or something...which goes back to my argument about level of training and skill.
     
  12. NGIB

    NGIB New Member

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    Really Grunt, I always knew you to be a meek and quiet fella. :D

    As GA doesn't have a training requirement, I've never been to a CCW class. This being said, I'm going to agree with Grunt that weak hand drawing/firing seems a tad over the top to me. I've been toying with getting my non-resident SC permit so I've looked into the training requirements. The class just covers the basics of the law, safe gun handling, and very basic marksmanship. Seems to me that these classes, to be safe, have to focus on the lowest common denominator - which will likely be someone with very limited experience.

    My 2 cents - worth everything you paid for it...
     
  13. Jay

    Jay New Member

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    Thee should have been NO live ammunition anywhere close, until manual dexterity, and gun-handling proficiency was proven.
     
  14. 7point62

    7point62 Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    Amen, snap em in for a week and crawl right up their ass if they so much as blink wrong. There are too many stupid goobers out there with CCLs which tells me that there are too many so-called "instructors" who are herding any misfit they can find through classes just to make a buck. I'm not commenting on this particular case but I know for a fact this is happening...and I also know for a fact that I could instruct the snot out of half the freakin people out there who claim to be instructors. Some of these clowns I wouldn't trust with a sharp stick. Just sayin.
     
  15. Durangokid

    Durangokid New Member

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    Grunt is correct. I have been an NRA Certified civilian and police handgun Inst. for a long time. Why was the Inst. using advanced combat training in a CCL class? We offer advanced certified combat Trng. to civilians only after they pass some very strict rules. I fear this Inst. is in trouble. The insurance coverage which Inst. carry is very tight on what they pay for.:)

    DK
     
  16. Colossal Urprising

    Colossal Urprising New Member

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    The drawing options should have been restricted to a CCW Tactics class, not a basic CCW class. I am a mo resident and went through the CCW class. The instructor obviously wanted to be the cool teacher, not the teacher he should have been.
     
  17. rjd3282

    rjd3282 New Member

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    Maybe we should outlaw ccw classes. Seems like they are dangerous. :rolleyes: If a guy made it to the range he was told before hand not to point a gun at himself. Don't blame the instructor just because this guy couldn't follow instructions. At 63 years of age he should have known better without anyone telling him. It's just typical of Americans today wanting to blame everyone but the person who was at fault. Even my 8 year old grandson knows better than to point a gun at himself or anyone else. It isn't the instructors fault anymore than it's the guns fault. It's the fault of the guy who pointed the gun at himself and had his finger on the trigger. Just another dumbass who is going to make it difficult for the rest of us to enjoy shooting. Let's stop playing the liberal blame game and put the blame where it really belongs.
     
  18. NGIB

    NGIB New Member

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    No blame being assigned here IMHO. The instructor was and is RESPONSIBLE for the safety of all persons in their class. Many that go to a permit class are noobs with guns so any decent instructor will make sure firearms are handled safely ALWAYS. Sure the guy screwed up - but he was not the expert - the instructor was and the liability remains with them...
     
  19. gruntpain1775

    gruntpain1775 New Member

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    I'm the last to blame someone else. I hate that crap. However, in this case the failure was at many levels. To begin with, I don't understand how you can get a weapon turned around 180 degrees when you are flipping the safety. That's hit one, right on the guy himself. He should have been paying more attentions, acting in a more safe manner and keeping his weapon pointed down range.

    That said, the Instructor had no business teaching that technique at a basic CCW class. I don't care if everyone there was a Super Special Delta Ranger Force Operator, it's a basic CCW course so that is what you teach.

    Sure, the guy who died is to blame. But the Instructor shares the responsibility of the death for his course material not being appropriate.
     
  20. NGIB

    NGIB New Member

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    Damn, been a while since I heard that one...:cool: