Michigan CPL Opinions

Discussion in 'Michigan Gun Forum' started by ninjatoth, Feb 26, 2014.

  1. ninjatoth

    ninjatoth New Member

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    I been putting off getting my ccw out of fear of denial despite countless people telling me that they don't think I would be denied. Here's the deal, Michigan's cpl application says that you cannot have a mental illness at the time the application is made regardless of whether you are receiving treatment for that illness or not. Michigan does not define mental illness or put labels on what you can or can't have in order to get a cpl, it only defines a mental illness as such

    "a substantial disorder of thought or mood that significantly impairs judgment, behavior, capacity to recognize reality, or ability to cope with the ordinary demands of life, and includes, but is not limited to, clinical depression."

    Ok, I have a couple of anxiety disorders(ocd and social fear) which are minor, but I do receive disability for them, now one could argue that this impairment could fit in with the portion of the definition that says "or ability to cope with the ordinary demands of life" -because i'm not working, yet on the other hand I am pretty much normal, I have a driver's license, I am sane, I buy guns all the time and pass the NICS check a couple of times a year, and I even have sole custody of one of my children and joint of the other. My buddy says he called the police dept and told them about my situation and that they said to check "no" on the mental illness question because they are only looking to deny the people that are psychotic killers, but have a letter ready to explain my disorders. They said that it's all interpretation and that I am not lying if I say no, that if something comes up it's that I misunderstood what they meant(because I kind of am misunderstanding the definition) and that I won't get into trouble if something comes up because misunderstanding questions happens all the time. I am just not sure about it all or to trust the police that they know what they are talking about. I am pretty sure if I checked no that it would go through since I have no mental health records in the court system and my background is clean hence why I buy guns all the time, but I am also terrified of a perjury change if they think I was lying. What would you all do if you were me?
     
  2. mountainman13

    mountainman13 New Member

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    What is the exact wording of the application?

    better judged by twelve than carried by six.
     

  3. ninjatoth

    ninjatoth New Member

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    "must not have a mental illness at the time the application is made regardless of whether you are receiving treatment for that illness or not"

    that's the exact wording on the app, they don't define mental illness on the app though, but Michigan law defines it as :"a substantial disorder of thought or mood that significantly impairs judgment, behavior, capacity to recognize reality, or ability to cope with the ordinary demands of life, and includes, but is not limited to, clinical depression."
     
  4. mountainman13

    mountainman13 New Member

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    Interesting wording. Most places required that you be hospitalized to be denied. The way it's worded you could be being treated for an illness but not be mentally ill. Your best bet is to consult an attorney.

    better judged by twelve than carried by six.
     
  5. ninjatoth

    ninjatoth New Member

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    That's the thing that always confused me too, most states more or less copy federal gun forms in their ccw applications such as in involuntary hospitalizations and crimes found not guilty by reason of insanity etc, but Michigan just half hazardly throws in that you can't even have a mental illness. It just seems so weird that in a state that requires a deeper background check and registration to even buy a handgun(in which I had to do to get all my handguns) that they would say no on a shall issue carry permit.
     
  6. ninjatoth

    ninjatoth New Member

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    And another thing that gets me, is that even if they could pinpoint that my conditions could be defined in some was as mental illness in the mental illness definition, there are also the words "substantial" and "significantly"..Even if I am "impaired" in some fashion, how substantial is it and how significantly does it effect me? And what exactly is "ordinary" when it comes to the demands of life? No one is ordinary! They make this definition so vague that just about anyone could truthfully wiggle around it no matter what you have.
     
  7. partdeux

    partdeux Well-Known Member

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    Go to the MI Gun Owners forum, legal Beagle Section and post your question. Several very qualified attorneys donate their time in supporting the forum.
     
  8. msup752

    msup752 New Member

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    Talk to a lawyer. This is too complex for anyone else.
    The issue has impacted me as a MI resident married to a bipolar phobic woman. We decided not to even apply for her CPL.
    If I was a betting man, if you get government assistance because of your psychological condition, then it will disqualify you from getting a CPL.


    Sent from my iPhone using Firearms Talk
     
  9. ninjatoth

    ninjatoth New Member

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    There's a new bill that looks like it could pass that would be good for me. It's mostly about stopping ccw licensing boards and transferring the process to the court system etc, people don't like it for the most part, but for me however, they changed the mental health clause from this:

    The applicant does not have a diagnosed mental illness at the time the application is made, regardless of whether he or she is receiving treatment for that illness. to this:

    The applicant does not have a diagnosed DIAGNOSIS OF mental
    illness THAT INCLUDES AN ASSESSMENT THAT THE INDIVIDUAL PRESENTS A
    DANGER TO HIMSELF OR HERSELF OR TO ANOTHER at the time the
    application is made, regardless of whether he or she is receiving treatment for that illness.


    So basically, as the law sits now, I am denied because I fit the their definition of mental illness with getting disability for the OCD, but later this year, I will not fit that definition and may get my ccw because I have never been a danger to myself and others ( I have owned guns for years and years). Yet again Michigan never fails to have the weirdest legislature in the country.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2015
  10. Eagle1803

    Eagle1803 New Member

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    If your not screwed now then you probably will be when the Libturds get done, consult a lawyer and let us know how that turns out.
     
  11. partdeux

    partdeux Well-Known Member

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  12. rn-cindy

    rn-cindy Active Member

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    I think that if your mental issues are severe enough to qualify you for disability payments...then you should probably be denied.
     
  13. MisterMcCool

    MisterMcCool Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Dyslexia is a mental illness. They should be denied a constitutional right?
     
  14. winds-of-change

    winds-of-change The Balota's Staff Member

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    I believe dyslexia is a learning disability, not a mental illness.
     
  15. ninjatoth

    ninjatoth New Member

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    OCD and social anxiety have NOTHING to do with owning or carrying a gun, in the same way they have nothing to do with driving a car, voting, raising my kids, or carrying on a normal daily life in what I have to do. It can however pose a huge burden in social situations, in the same way it made concentrating in school difficult when I was a kid. I'm not even on disability for OCD by itself anyways, it's for something else but they have record of the OCD and it can play a part, and being on record it could pose a legal issue. I HAVE NOT however been adjudicated insane, involuntarily committed, committed in any way for that matter and why would I? I never heard of someone having issues like that with OCD, it really isn't even a mental illness, yeah it's classified as one but it's really not. I have never hurt anyone, have a perfectly clean record and have owned guns since about age 11 and do not take medication for it at all. I am now 35 years old, and by you suggesting that I should not be given the same rights as everyone else simply because I have a minor anxiety condition is simply quite offensive, and judgmental. It's like me saying that if you were in a wheelchair, and got disability for it, that you should not have a way to protect yourself, because you might be dangerous, I mean you're gonna shoot too low anyways because now you're always sitting, might hurt someone innocent. I will do anything and everything to protect my children when i'm out and about since they are often with me and that's that, I don't need opinions like yours.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 30, 2015
  16. MisterMcCool

    MisterMcCool Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't want the government deciding who is healthy enough to exercise rights. :mad:


    no offense and none taken
     
  17. ninjatoth

    ninjatoth New Member

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    The reason that I am so upset is because it is not fun being treated as if, and classed into the same classification as a felon whom deserves less rights. I have never broken the law, and yet people that have multiple misdemeanors of domestic violence may get a ccw after a set number of years after the offense. I have proven myself fit, yet others have been proven violent, yet they get to carry a gun. That makes no sense to me. Nonetheless, if this new bill passes I am good to go, I am not lying or breaking the law by answering "no" the the question of do I have a mental illness that includes a diagnosis that i'm a danger to myself or others, because I don't, and if I did that would be very strange since even people that know nothing about mental illnesses know that OCD is not dangerous, in fact most people laugh when I tell them, including cops at the police station when I go in there for other reasons, and we getting to talking about the ccw app, they tell me check "no" to the mental illness question as it sets now, which I don't do, everyone knows that you don't trust cops for legal advice..............and you can see basically right here how my OCD affects me. I am obsessive about always making sure to follow the law to a T, and obsessive that I do something correctly so as to not get into trouble, so often it takes me a long time to do things because I want them done right, I worry, and worry more about stuff like catching jail time for false statements. I have kids and a lot to lose so I need to obsess about this stuff and make damn sure its legal.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2015
  18. partdeux

    partdeux Well-Known Member

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    Slippery slope not withstanding... how can we determine when someone shouldn't be allowed to carry?
     
  19. rn-cindy

    rn-cindy Active Member

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    If they are on disability (partially) :rolleyes:. due to mental issues would be one clue...?
     
  20. MisterMcCool

    MisterMcCool Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The person must be a U.S. citizen and also not be imprisoned.