[Hot Sauce NARC]

Well id like to say im new to this site. I graduated college got a job and the first thing i bought was nib R.R.A. m4 which was immediately topped with an eotech and a Yankee hill machine quad rail among other minor goodies. I absolutely love it, and it is a great weapon. Im just not absolutely thrilled about targets that are covered by the red dot past 75 yards. Im beginning to think i "need" a new black rifle to serve my long range purposes. Ive done a bit of reading and looked at all the big names (and some smaller ones) web pages and I think i would like to have a RRA varmint a4 24' barrel, or something very similar. I just wish RRA made that model in some different calibers. Im wondering if anybody has any suggestions based on their long range ar's. Much appreciated:

 

[Dick Manley]

What sort of distances are you trying to achieve. The AR can reach out to 400-500 meters and still be effective, provided you are shooting the right loads and have a decent optic.

Instead of rushing out and buying a new rifle, try a different optic and heavier 6O-68 grain bullet. (you will most likely get better accuracy out of the 60's because of the 1/9 bbl twist rate that you have.)

Here is just a suggestion on an optic and mount that may help shoot very accuratly out to 350-400 meters. A Millet DMS 1-4x varible power optic and a larue mount for your flat top

The Optic
Millet 1-4X24 DESIGNATED MARKSMAN Tactical SCOPE (DMS)

Mount
LaRue Tactical SPR-E Scope Mount QD LT-139

A Second (some what cheaper) Mount
American Defense RECON X Extended Scope 1 inch rings

Remember this is just an option, it may be a little on the expensive side (approx $465) but its cheaper than buying a whole new rifle and optic combo.

-DM-

 

[Hot Sauce NARC]

well my problem with that is i still need a very short range entry rifle. i work in law enforcement and i like the eotech because realistically most of the shots i would have to make would be from 2ft to 25 yards in the dark. I do some coyote hunting and a lot of steel shooting and think it would probably be better for me to have 2 different rifles, different loads and everything.

thanks for the info though

 

[Dick Manley]

I would just put the varaiable optic on and run it that way for both. My work gun is an GAU-5 (M4) with that very optic. Trust me it will work in the conditions you stated that you may possibly deploy yours.

-DM-

 

[Hot Sauce NARC]

well maybe i should just say this then. I did not plan my first post very effectively lol. I have an ideal ar for work i love my set up i have on it right now. I want to buy(possibly build) a coyote/steel rifle to be accurate/effective out to about 500 yards, my problem is in deciding what to buy. I like te rock river varmint a4 alot, but im not sure i want .223.

 

[canebrake]

You have the same problem I did when i got my AK. I wanted the two eye red dot for inside the wire moving zombie slaying and plopped the reflex sight on with great results! Then found it worthless for 100yd target shooting. I had a magnitude increase in accuracy using the iron post over the red dot. Wrong tool for the job. Why buy another gun when a quick optic change will do the trick. Granted my usage is paper targets and not bgs who respond in kind. For the “long range” you will be using I think your decision is correct to leave your tactical gear alone for your own piece of mind not to mention legal liability. Any bg requirements further out will require a pay grade change along with the hardware change.

Here’s my "fun gun" solution:

Two eye zombie slayer.

Reach out and touch someone.

 

[spittinfire]

IMHO, if you're fussing about accuracy at 75yds from an M4, you need to practice your shooting. Get rid of the sights and learn to shoot with some iron. If you can hit with iron, you can hit with anything.

 

[matt g]

If you've got the cash, you might want to look into a SR-25, if your heart is set on an AR platform.

If you can be swayed from the AR: M14SE Crazy Horse and MK14 SEI Rifles: Smith Enterprise, Inc.

 

[Hot Sauce NARC]

i didnt say i couldnt hit anything with my eotech, it just covers up alot of the target at longer ranges. i shot with the iron sights for a while and they were acurate, but my work gun needs to be able to make shots in the pitch black and thats why i went with the red dot.

 

[TwoHandRevy]

You have the same problem I did when i got my AK. I wanted the two eye red dot for inside the wire moving zombie slaying and plopped the reflex sight on with great results! Then found it worthless for 100yd target shooting. I had a magnitude increase in accuracy using the iron post over the red dot. Wrong tool for the job. Why buy another gun when a quick optic change will do the trick. Granted my usage is paper targets and not bgs who respond in kind. For the “long range” you will be using I think your decision is correct to leave your tactical gear alone for your own piece of mind not to mention legal liability. Any bg requirements further out will require a pay grade change along with the hardware change.

Here’s my "fun gun" solution:

Two eye zombie slayer.

Reach out and touch someone.

I really don't mean to derail this thread, but here the heck did you get that sweet Soviet-bloc setup there Cane?

 

[robocop10mm]

For an LE Patrol Rifle. What you have is fine. It will handle mid range engagements easily. If you work a rural environment, you may consider a second rifle for longer range work. I carry a 16" Colt w/C-More scout scope for urban/shorter range work and a 20" HBAR w/3-9 scope for longer range work. My County is pretty big (about 700 sq. miles) w/a lot of urban/suburban sprawl, Flat land prairie in the East and rocky rolling hills in the West. Depending on the mission, I may need a different rifle.

For accurate work with either type rifle I use the Winchester 64 gr Power Point. The carbine will shoot 3/4" groups and the HBAR will shoot 1/2" groups with that round. I am not a believer in BTHP's in .224 diameter. They may well be accurate but they have unpredictable terminal performance. The 64gr PP has performed well and consistantly.

Typical M-193 or M-855 ammo is not a reasonable choice for duty carry in a Patrol Rifle. Consider more premium ammo and be prepared to try several brands/weights to find what gives you the accuracy you need and the terminal performance you should expect.

Our entry guns (M-16 F/A 11.5" Commando models) run 55 gr HP's. Penetration is only about 3-4" in flesh. That is entirely inadequate for a Patrol Rifle, IMHO, but fine for an entry gun.

Unless you do not have a dedicated unit to deal with precision situations, I would not bother with "sniper accuracy". If you are going to try a brain stem shot at 200 yards, you need to be behind a dedicated .308 precision rifle and have some significant training like the FBI sniper school.

 

[canebrake]

I really don't mean to derail this thread, but here the heck did you get that sweet Soviet-bloc setup there Cane?

Just a cheap Romey with bling. Deadly sweet custom by cane!

 

[Hot Sauce NARC]

Well i like the set up i have now for my job, i do not parol, but need a carbine for search warrants(my m-4 eotech) i want a completly seperate rifle for hunting coyotes and targets on the weekend. Ive been doing alot of reading the past few days and i have decided to build a .223 for 100/350-400 yards so lets hear some suggestions for 20 inch barrels.

 

[Dillinger]

20" Bull Barrel with a 1:9 twist to handle bullets from 45 to 70 grains and a Free Floated Fore End is my vote.

As to whom you should buy from - Good luck right now. Any quality barrel makers out there are backlogged BIG TIME.

Krieger makes the best AR barrels on the market, for my money, but they are about 8 months out on anyone not ordering about 150 of them at a time. We tried to order 30 in a bulk for some AR kits we wanted to put together and were told it would be late summer, early fall before we could expect them.

Shilen and Pac-Nor are some choices, but they are a little lower on my list personally. Doesn't mean they won't work well for you.

I would check out some of the on line sights and see if anyone is selling a barrel you can pick up without having to get the whole gun. The_Republican had, I believe, a 20" barrel that had like 100 rounds through it and he was selling for a good price, I don't know if it's still for sale or not.

Just some thoughts off the top of my head this morning...

Feel free to PM if you have any questions or need some help with the build.

JD

 

[Hot Sauce NARC]

i was looking online last night and i found a couple i liked from white oak armament for a decent price, and they will attach their barrell to an upper reciever that you send them. I thought this seemed like a decent deal, but i did not know what anyone thought about white oak.

 

[Hot Sauce NARC]

i actually made a mistake, it is kreiger not white oak that will fit their barrell to your receiver. sorry

 

[Dillinger]

I don't personally know of, or know anyone, who has dealt with White Oak. In looking at their webpage, a couple of questions come to mind that you might want to ask before just up and sending them your parts & cash.

1) What is their backlog?

2) Do they have the parts in hand, or is there a wait list?

3) What type of rifling was done ( cut rifled / buttoned / broach? ) as that will make a difference in the quality of the barrel.

I have sent them an e-mail with some questions and invited them to stop by and post some of their goods. Let's see what they have to say...

JD

 

[Dillinger]

Okay, so I just heard back from John with White Oak - took him about ten minutes to reply actually and he seems like a good guy.

They are 8-14 weeks out on uppers & barrels. That is about what I would expect right now with the market being so customer demanding in lew of the new administration.

Their standard barrel is a button rifled barrel. This is the easiest and cheapest way to rifle a barrel. The accuracy is decent, but by no means tack driving.

They also offer Kreiger ( Warrior ) barrels, which I really like. If they are a prefered dealer, they might be getting a break on pricing, which will give you a price of about what you could order it from Kreiger & then you are paying for them to mount the barrel and function check it.

JD

 

[matt g]

Well i like the set up i have now for my job, i do not parol, but need a carbine for search warrants(my m-4 eotech) i want a completly seperate rifle for hunting coyotes and targets on the weekend. Ive been doing alot of reading the past few days and i have decided to build a .223 for 100/350-400 yards so lets hear some suggestions for 20 inch barrels.

The standard engagement range for our GI M4s with open sights was 300m. That's how we trained on the ranges, as those are considered typical combat engagement ranges.

If the M4 belongs to you and not the department, you should be able to shoot out to 400 yards without a problem. Like Robo suggested though, you might want to consider upgrading the optics to a scout style scope. Maybe you'd consider using QD mounts on both scopes, so you can quickly swap between optics for weekend and duty use.

 

[Hot Sauce NARC]

the kreiger barrels do seem like a better option in a perfect market lol just out of curosity what is the difference between button and cut rifleing and y is cut better?