max distance for red dot optic vs magnification scope

Discussion in 'AR-15 Discussion' started by StainlessSteel215, May 19, 2013.

  1. StainlessSteel215

    StainlessSteel215 New Member

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    Just trying to get a feel here....
    at what distance would you guys NOT use the red dot because of sheer visibility issues while acquiring your target? For me its around the 75 yard mark. My eyes are not great but not horrible...and anything beyond 75 yards my eyes totally blur the target area.

    If I ever get the funds to build a long distance AR I will probably get a 20" barrel and a 10-12x magnifier scope for anything beyond 75-100 yards.

    Can any of you actually hit a target accurately using a red dot anywhere from 75 yards on? My groups were straggly and pretty scattered....around 10"
     
  2. Quentin

    Quentin New Member

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    Well a good RDS should be about 3MOA out to 75 yards and certainly better than 10" at 100. Sounds like it's your eyesight that's the weak link here.
     

  3. StainlessSteel215

    StainlessSteel215 New Member

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    Quentin I kinda thought so, guess I needed to hear it from an outsider....

    Those with 20/20 or better:
    can you still acquire a nice sight picture with your red dot square in the middle of the POI (bullseye) beyond 75 yards? Like I imagine the sharp shooters out there who can hit 3" groups from 300 yards and it blows my mind because at 100 yards my eyes cannot even see a 3" bullseye.

    Considering saving up for Lasik eye surgery because around here in the northeast there's overwhelming positive results from a few popular local doctors....even for those like me with astigmatism. Worth a shot, virtually zero recovery time
     
  4. JTJ

    JTJ Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I went with a 1-4x24 scope with a 1moa red dot on my AR. I have used a 3 moa red dot on it and could keep the shots well inside the dot from the bench. The scope is a Bushnell Trophy XLT. They also make one 1.5-6x42.
     
  5. AgentTikki

    AgentTikki New Member

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    On a bench I can put 4-5" groups with pmc 55 gr fmj at 100" with my 4 moa rds.

    I haven't had much time with it but with my 18" Black Hole, with Vortex 1-4x at 50 yards with pmc and American Eagle (both 55 gr fmj) was one straggly hole. I forgot to add that I was ringing steel consistently from 200, 300, 400 yards with same ammo.

    My eyesight isn't great but I had lasik about 10 years ago and it continues to be a game changer. Technology's come a long way since then so I can only imagine how much better it is nowasdays. Btw my eyes are astigmatic and I was 5.75 in eye one and 4.50 in the other. Save up, and get it! You'll never regret it.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2013
  6. locutus

    locutus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I shoot at FBI "Q" targets, but I have no trouble hitting COM with an AK and a red dot at 200 yards. Since a red dot is a CQB battle sight I never did see the point in shooting round bulls eye targets with them, so I don't know how they would perform with those.

    With my AR and A.C.O.G., that goes to 400+
     
  7. Tackleberry1

    Tackleberry1 New Member

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    My 16" upper runs a non magnified EOTECH. I practiced in the woodline by shooting Pre placed clay pigeons at 50 to 75 yards and can crack them consistently and quickly offhand.

    With my irons, this upper will hold 1 MOA at 100 but the size of the red dot makes ^^THIS^^ a hope/prayer with the optic. Red Dot groups at 100 are closer to 2.5" for me... with this particular sight.

    My "target" upper is a 22" freefloat that will cut under 1/2 MOA. I run a fixed 10 Power Mill Dot reticle on this one and have consistently hit grapefruits at 300 yards.

    Tack
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2013
  8. bluez

    bluez Well-Known Member

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    It also depends on what kind of "red dot" you use.
    With the Aimpoint Pro I like ot keep it under 75/100m tops.
    With the Eotech due to its 1 MOA dot I see usefulness out to 250m
     
  9. AgentTikki

    AgentTikki New Member

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    Minute of bad guy you can do 300 yards.

    I ring steel with my 7.5" ar pistol with 4 moa dot 200 easy. 300 is doable I'm usually 8 or 9 out of 10 when I've got my holds down.
     
  10. Quentin

    Quentin New Member

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    I disagree, normally quality eyeglasses are superior to lasik. And as your eyesight changes, you get new glasses. I'm glad your surgery worked out well, AT, but I could never recommend hacking up a healthy cornea especially when even the best result rarely is as good as corrective lenses.
     
  11. AgentTikki

    AgentTikki New Member

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    On this point, I disagree with you Q, my quality of life has improved dramatically since my op.

    Reading, swimming, excersizing, even shooting in my humble opinion have improved dramatically. Basically from the moment I wake up to when I hit the sack, it continues to be a game chnger.

    Now I do concede there are drawbacks and risks, so what ever you do, do your due diligence and DO NOT cheap out on your eyes.
     
  12. Quentin

    Quentin New Member

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    I guess it depends on how bad your vision is. Some people who wear coke bottle thick glasses may do well having some correction with lasik. When it's a cosmetic thing I'd run from that laser. I'm not convinced that refractive surgery is a good idea in most cases but it is a money maker and not going away any time soon. After lasic it's still common to need some correction with glasses to achieve 20-20 sight.
     
  13. Cattledog

    Cattledog New Member

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    It is still just a dot, a pure light version of open sights. Even with 20/20 beyond 75 youre approaching pure marksmanship and I'd put that around 75-100 anyway. Meaning, sight is less of an issue than skill beyond a certain range with open sights or a dot. With your vision issues, you should be looking at a good low magnification scope to get your clarity back.
     
  14. purehavoc

    purehavoc New Member

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    I think Lasik has come a long ways in the past few years,
    I got my wife Lasik for Christmas 3 years ago . Its been nothing but fantastic, her vision was SH!T, astigmatism , and all , she now has a corrected vision of 20/20 . Her vision was bad enough we had to get new prescriptions 2-3 times a year so it was very costly and no vision insurance on our end . The Lasik has more than paid for its self in the last 3 years .
     
  15. StainlessSteel215

    StainlessSteel215 New Member

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    Now THAT was what I wanted to hear, thanks!

    Sorry this has morphed into a eyesight thread but I appreciate all responses. I'm newer to the rifle platform and still testing out optics, marksmanship, and now focusing on my peepers.

    I'm hitting tight 2" groups up until about the 40 yard using irons and optics....then it starts to get sloppy beyond 40. That seems to be my vision threshold for hitting tight groups. For me, its absolutely a combo of eyesight versus skill. Both are slightly lacking.
     
  16. purehavoc

    purehavoc New Member

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    This will be one of the best investments you have ever purchased , just have it done at a well known place that has good reviews and does quality work . I opted to pay cash for hers and it saved me about $900 , They could have put us on the payment plan also but I chose to put that $900 back in my wallet :D. She doesnt need readers or anything like that , She has had several friends that have now had it done at the same place all with fabulous results .
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2013
  17. AgentTikki

    AgentTikki New Member

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    Yes, do your due diligence, and find your doctor. Then research him online. I checked for lawsuits, complaints, etc etc. Do NOT go for the cheapest option. Do get free consulations. Take your time. There are risks involved. Please be careful.

    Then get ready for one of the greatest feelings; waking up in the morning and reaching out for your glasses, opening your eyes, and then realizing that you no longer need them! That feeling lasts a month or two. Being able to see in the shower, not worrying about eyeglass cases or contact lens gear when traveling, shopping for sunglasses without worrying about having to worry about getting perscription lenses, AHHHHHHH the little things....


    One drawback that I personally experience is lens flare and halos from focused light sources. This phenomenon is especially noticeable at night. When driving all the lights looks as tho from a video game It never bothers me when watching tv or at the movies. It does make it hard for me to read some signs at night. It does make choosing a red dot challenging. Since I get lens flare, kind of like this picture...[​IMG]
    Now, this picture is a little extreme, but you get the idea. This is a side effect and I was warned about it before getting my procedure. I was warned that I may be distracting while driving at night, but honestly, I feel like I'm playing grand tursimo and it makes the city skyline line look like a small fireworks display at night. I do want to warn you tho, that you need to test out a red dot or other illuminated reticle type scope before buying it. I purchased a red dot, and had it melted into the slide of my custom Glock Longslide. The gunsmith did a wonderful job. Problem is, the Leupold Deltapoint has automatic brightness adjustment and the large triangular dot was a giant flared blob, albeit a pretty sparkly looking thing. It rendered my build useless so I had to sell it. I have similar issues with Eotechs, because its reticle is made up with a bunch or small points not a solid line. So even if I turn down the brightness on an eotech the reticle does get a little fuzzy on me. Aimpoints work the best for me. I can turn down the brightness, bright enough to see clearly, with little to no fuzziness or flare. I've been meaning to check out Acogs or Accupoints at night to see if the tritium will give me any problems, but I'm finding that no stores want to let me borrow one overnight :p.

    PS bear in mind that I had my procedure done OVER 10 years ago, back in 2001. (GD I'm getting old) After talking to a friend that had the procedure done last year, it does seem that they have make leaps and bounds in new techniques and innovations over the course of a decade. So expect that your results to be less problematic than mine. IIRC my eyesight right after the procedure was better than 20/20, then over a course of 6 months stabilized to 20/20. I had followup checkups at 3 months 6 months and a year afterwards. No touchups or other work since.

    Hope this helps ya!
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2013
  18. sweeper22

    sweeper22 New Member

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    Skill, talent, equipment. In my opinion these are the three most critical factors in your AR performing beyond 50yds...and probably in that order.

    Skill is what you earn, through disciplined repetition and invested time and ammo ($) on the range. Talent is the ability you're blessed with, whether you earn it or not. Equipment is the hard goods that compensate for your limitations, or maximize your skill/talent.

    I'd guess I'm a B-grade talent with a C-grade skill/experience. All that means is that I need to shoot more. I'm pretty okay to 100yds with zero magnification. I can deal with anything that poses a threat out toward 200-300. But I lack the skill or experience to shoot tight groups at that range.

    I love red dots, and like fixed 2-3X setups on ARs. My guess is that I'll throw a 3-9 or 4.5-14 on one rifle in the near future as a precision setup (SS 1:8 barrel). But I probably won't ever set a rifle up with anything close to 20x magnification. Just personal needs and preference.

    The general application of an AR (for me) is that it be fast and accurate at 5-100 yards, above all else.
     
  19. Quentin

    Quentin New Member

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    That starburst effect Agent Tikki pictured above was very common with the old RK/HK surgeries pre-lasik and still happens with lasik, along with glare, impared night vision, light sensitivity, dry corneas, etc. I think we can all agree you should do your homework before any surgery! Myself, I'm living with my glasses.

    One piece of advice, and please consider carefully, DO NOT have both eyes done at the same time! And have them do your worst eye first. Lots of people after having one eye done - they don't go back for the second. Pre-lasik, a buddy had refractive surgery done and I suggested that he only have the worst eye touched but he wanted to save $500 and be done with it. Sadly it didn't work out, the doc was a quack, destroyed both corneas and my friend is legally blind. Guide dog and white cane blind. One eye at a time, please! And by a doctor who has excellent reviews.
     
  20. purehavoc

    purehavoc New Member

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    As with anything do your homework , Most around here wont even do it unless you do them both at one time , If you dont have perfect vision when its done they will go back in and do touch ups for free where we went . It wasnt cheap but neither are 3 new prescriptions of glasses and contacts every year .