Magazines are consumables!

Discussion in 'General Rifle Discussion' started by bluez, Mar 2, 2015.

  1. bluez

    bluez Well-Known Member

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    Here is what the ground looks like after a 300 yard Break Contact Drill at Max Velocity Tactical.
    Executing a Break Contact means you do a lot of emergency reloads to cover your buddies.

    MVT Student took the vid to make this important point.

    [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06Qd4-8GJAk&t=240[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2015
  2. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    in the army we stuck empties in cargo pockets of bdu pants. mags are not expendable since you do not get more unless you steal em later...
     

  3. bluez

    bluez Well-Known Member

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    During a Tactical Reload you retain magazines (ideally back into a pouch)

    But during an Emergency Reload by definition you do not retain them and just eject/reload/shoot to cover your buddy.
    These are 2 distinct types of reloads.
    Depending on the situation you employ one or the other.

    During an ambush/active firefight you employ Emergency reloads in the quest for fire superiority.

    This is current Army/USMC TTPs :)

    there is a school of thought that is looking at modifying the Emergency reload for preppers/civilians since our resupply is so insecure and to throw the mag real quick into the top of your shirt but its not generally agreed on.

    I tried this many times and found often you dont want to lose even that 1 to 1.5 sec it takes to do that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2015
  4. jsr5

    jsr5 New Member

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    I see it as more of a training issue. With practice you can effectively use a "dump pouch " to collect your empties and in this kind of a contact volume is what is sought and again with practice you can still fire effectively (for this scenario) with one hand while the weak hand is securing the magazine. It is in my opinion all in how you train. If trained from the ground up to secure mags as you go it can be done and still maintain effectivness.

    I have spares and realize there will be some losses but fully intend to save most or nearly all of mine. Of course my mobility means my brass and mags would be in a pile instead of scattered but I still provide training to some others and I train to retain.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2015
  5. mike1-505PIR

    mike1-505PIR New Member

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    In the 82nd we trained to save our mags. Just tell the rest of your team you are reloading and they will make up for it. Cargo pockets was the ideal place until time provided to move them back to the mag pouch. There were times I was shooting with an empty mag still in my hand held against the rifle.


    Sent from my iPhone using Firearms Talk
     
  6. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    when bullets are flying at you, you never initiate a reload unless your under cover. i see lots of gamers doing reloads standing in the open loading and looking right left. me, im going to be behind cover... ive had real bullets shot at me its not fun. giving up cover to reload in a survival self defense situation isnt wise.
     
  7. bluez

    bluez Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand your post in connection of this discussion :peepwall:

    No one is talking about leaving cover w/ either method of reload for either reason in any of my posts.

    And I agree you see a lot of nonsense with reloading while standing or otherwise out of cover, by folks who learn from the SWAT fantasy camps out there like Magpul dynamics (as opposed to proper Small Unit Tactics training like Sierra 13, Max Velocity or Mosby) etc but these common errors have no relation to the two specific reload drills that exist.

    Again:
    Emergency reload = the mag freely falls (hopefully) as you release, and as it falls you replace and immediately keep firing. that is w/o stopping to spend that second to retain the mag. That's the definition of an Emergency reload.

    Tactical reload, means you are not currently in contact (over a terrain feature for example and you are rallying after a firefight etc), and you perform a tactical reload to replace your partially empty magazine with a full one and then put the partial back in your rig to retain that mag and have that ammo just in case.
    But you now have a full mag back in your weapon.

    Thats the best way I know how to explain it and those are the definitions of the two standard reloads that exist.

    Now as I mentioned before there is a school of thought thats considers preppers due to the worse supply situation (as illustrated in this vid) might want/need to modify those methods... but those are still the 2 basic reload methods that are in current use . :cheers:

    (modifications exist. but they are just that, modifications.. such as then in the past troops might just throw the empty into their open shirt...maybe even during an emergency reload when the supply situation was poor, like the way it might be with preppers.... and thats the point of this excellent vid I think at least in part)
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2015
  8. Franklin1995

    Franklin1995 New Member

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    We were taught to aim for the dump pouch for a tactical reload and just drop it for a emergency reload.

    Ideally, you always want to do tactical reloads and aim for your dump pouch. But just like most things, situation dictates.

    JSR5- Training could help you retain more magazines, but I was taught that you have to "turn and burn" on contact and gain fire superiority immediately. They'd rather us just lose our empties and get them after the fight than to take that extra second to put them in a dump pouch. I was one of the best at doing tactical reloads and it still took me 1-2 seconds to get it in the pouch (granted, I could probably get that time down if I trained a lot more.) Those damn things are harder than they look :p

    It all depends on the size of the enemy force, the cover you have around you, how many people you have on your side, etc etc... In an open field like that I'd be doing emergency reloads.
     
  9. NotMormon

    NotMormon Member

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    As a guy who does no training at all, I can't see how you could handle the situation any differently. Open field, covering fire and moving as fast as possible? How could you recover mags in that scenario? What were the home vs numbers in the op? Looks like one of the worst possible scenarios to me.....I don't even play video games!
     
  10. Vikingdad

    Vikingdad New Member

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    I watched the video and think it does make a good point. My first take-away is don't get freaking caught out in the open with no cover, and if you do you pretty much can either reload on the run while dropping mags or get shot with an empty mag in your gun. I'll reload and drop the mags myself.

    Under the specific conditions described there was no opportunity to reload under cover. That was not an option. So it was either reload or don't. The question or perhaps the lesson is that on a "break contact" (meaning retreat?) drill one should consider whether they will retain the empty mags- or not. If you cannot expect that you will get resupplied with mags it might be worth keeping them, but it might also cost you your life.
     
  11. WebleyFosbery38

    WebleyFosbery38 New Member

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    Mission insinuates intent, situation dictates response. All things being equal, they never are. The US Army was clear, Magazines are part of the weapon, not expendable, more like replaceable and variable according to load and mission but we werent taught to purposely toss them.

    In 21 years (17 Infantry AA), I never really had anyone shooting at me or visa versa. Im sure I got away with too many John Wayne moves that the laser didnt catch but I would have. We would leave mags behind in a fight occasionally because we knew we would be back through to police them up! I also got hit and reset often enough (SOmetimes by overzealous god gunners---Bastards!!!!!!!!, other times it would have been WF Dead 38).

    I think it matters what the actual state of the fight is (C & C Considered), how your supplies are holding out (Can I get more mags if I lose these?) and if that mag might end up in an enemy weapon because I left it behind (our newest NME's have many of our weapons in hand).
     
  12. bluez

    bluez Well-Known Member

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    Great discussion fellas, keep it coming! :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2015
  13. bluez

    bluez Well-Known Member

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    I was training again last weekend.

    On the FireTeam size break contact drill, I left 3 mags behind executing emergency reloads.

    Stock up on extra mags fellas come SHTF they will be available mainly via battle field pick
    ... but only if you win you are in possession of the battlefield and you cant win unless you gain fire superiority.
     
  14. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    From my understanding resupply in a combat zone is with loaded magazines. Stripper clips are only used in training and quals.

    Magazines cost Uncle Sugar about $3 each. They are disposable. Drop 'em, stomp 'em, move one.