[bernie]

Before another assault weapons ban,
I would like to get something.
I would be interested in an M16 type of weapon,
what is similar, in the civilian world?
(Yes, I know I can't have full auto or burst)
I would prefer a common round size, reliability, and common spare parts.

In addition, I want to add a pump 12 gauge to my toys.
Anybody have preferences on those--again, reliability and parts availability a consideration.

Thanks for any insight

 

[Dillinger]

Welcome to the Forum Bernie -

First off I will give you this link which is to our AR section of the website. There are a lot of good threads to read through to help you get some information.

Also this thread has a lot of contributions from the current members to help those new to the field cut through some of the myths associated with the Black Rifle.

Read through those and see what you think - then you can narrow your field of questions down to more specific ones.

JD

 

[pioneer461]

Bernie, please pardon me, but I have to ask. Are you an anti-gun plant trying to stir something up?

I ask that because the question you ask comes under the heading of common knowledge to those of us in the shooting community. Please forgive me if I am wrong about this, but you indicated that you already have a firearms collection.

Since we've come this far, I'll assume you have Internet access. Google search M-16 rifle and see what happens. You'll get something like 269,000 hits. The common civilian version of the M-16 is known as the AR-15, or simply AR. It is one of the most commonly purchased rifles on the market today. Go to almost any gun or sporting goods store that sells rifles, and you will be able to select from a very large variety.

The most common pump action shotguns that you ask about are Remington 870 and Mossberg 500, or variants of those.

Good luck and again I apologize if I seem out of line. I'm a retired cop and suspicious by nature. Even if you are a plant, stay around a while. Maybe you'll learn something.

 

[DuckA]

This is one of those times that I was talking about. Anyone that would want an "M16 type" of weapon that is not completely ignorant about guns should know about the AR.

No matter whether the person is legit or not. Asking questions on a message board first is not a good way to start. I could tell this guy anything. If he is not legit, let him do the work and get his own ammo for his cause. If he is legit, then he should be doing research to get a knowledge base before asking questions. That way, he would have a better chance of distinguishing between bs and truth. I would suggest a wonderful tool that has been around for a while. Friggin' GOOGLE!

 

[bernie]

WOW--
didn't mean to get anybody up in arms.
I will try not to clog up this forum with stupid questions, again.
Some of the replies reflect some of the reasons I try to avoid people.
I may get a tad bit off topic, but let me try to explain:
I could have called a couple people,
but I didn't feel like bugging them.
I didn't think my wife or the dogs would have the answer.
After leaving the military (honorably),
I have pretty much stuck to myself.
For the most part, I prefer it that way.
To put it simply, People are trouble. (or can be)
I had many people asking me for favors,
because of my then profession.
I have withdrawn somewhat from people, just because my life is easier that way, I don't have to tell people,"NO" as often.
In addition, my mind doesn't work like it used to,
At times, I can get numbers or other details confused.
Rather than googling a bunch, hit and miss with two letters followed by two numbers, I thought, since this forum seemed friendly, I could ask here.
I knew it was a simple question, but many agree that the only stupid question is the one not asked.
I live out in the county, my dial-up is incredibly slow, and I'm too cheap to pay for a satellite ISP. $10/mo vs. $80/mo--any searching takes forever.
Not everyone lives in the city with a choice of high speed ISP's.
I thought while I was asking, I'd ask about the pumps--there was an 870 local for sale, but I had read some bad about them---I thought I might save a little time waiting on pages to load.
I appreciate your caution, and I'm sorry--I can be somewhat paranoid myself about things. Again, I Apologize.
If you all would like to ban me, or if I've broken some code of conduct, that's fine, I accept the consequences.
I hoped you all wouldn't mind sharing knowledge.
As I have nothing to hide, if someone would like to do a background check

EDIT: That won't be necessary sir - thank you for the offer, but we don't need full names and anything else on the website that could fall into prying hands. JD

Dillinger, thank you for a straight answer, I'll check the links.
Everyone else, I hope this reply is sufficient.

Again, I apologize, and will attempt to restrict my questions in the future.
Thank you.

 

[bernie]

Briefly, to eliminate some confusion, I initially posted this under "general rifle" discussion, and the moderator moved it to here, the AR15 discussion. AR15, by the way, is --of course--what I was trying to recall and get more info on.
Again, I apologize.
Take care,
Dan

 

[Dillinger]

Sir - Please feel free to ask all the questions you like. Or PM me directly if you would like to deal with just one person.'

The forum gets a little worried at times because we have some dubious members who stop by to try and get something for the Left to use.

I assure you, for the most part, they are all well meaning and good natured people.

Any questions, please feel free to PM directly, or participate in a few of the threads to get a feel for the folks, and let them get a feel for you.

No worries - all interested in firearms are welcomed in these halls.

Thank you for your military service as well!

JD

 

[bkt]

bernie, please try to understand that a forum such as this experiences its share of folks from the other side of the aisle -- namely, those who would like to see any and all form of firearms confiscated and banned. So when someone new poses a question that looks like it might be opening a Pandora's box of goofy left-wing drivel, people pounce.

Clearly, we see that's not what you were doing. No need for you to apologize.

Let us know what features you're looking for in an AR-15 and we can provide some recommendations.

 

[janikphoto]

it's just absurd that there are some crazy anti-firearm people who would come here and act like normal second amendment-respecting citizens. I'm sure it DOES happen on occasion, but still... it is just nuts!

The 870 is a good, dependable shotgun. There are so many AR-15 style manufacturers that you could ask a million questions and not be done asking. That's why there's a whole section of the forum devoted to the AR-15 platform.

 

[bernie]

Greetings,
It took awhile to get my nerve up to check this post.
I was unsure how beat up I would be.
Thank you.
And again, I truly do understand the concern, and hope I didn't offend anyone with my replies. I simply wanted to set the record straight.
Dillinger, thank you for the edit: however, to clear my name, I was willing to risk posting my personal info. I do appreciate the edit, and if you would like to check me further, I will be more than happy to supply you with any more info.
Where do I stand? I live as legally as I possibly can, but because of some of my views on some of our country's politics, (and the absurdity of them) I wonder some day if a black suburban with guys in suits will pull up some day, and I will never be heard from again--lol.
***on edit--disclaimer--no need for concern, I'm just joking around, I am a law-abiding citizen, frustrated with some policies, as any concerned American should be***
Okay, I've got pointed in the right direction.
Used servicable parts, of course, or more than fine.
I just wanted a basic A1 or A2 style, iron sights, no frills, (of course, semi-auto).
I found that there are "kits" available, and I'll be looking at these,
as I could use the practice. Its been 12 years since I was active duty.
I read about an option for .22 upper, which would be cheaper for practice,
and I will look into one of these as soon as I have a stock one built.
I will also keep my eyes open for a used one, that I can go through.
Once I get a better idea of the market,
I'll probably bother my local gun dealer guy, to see what he can do.

I'll continue to look as I have the correct model # now,
and doubt I will ever forget it again. (But tomorrow I'll probably be going through, "was it AM16, RA51, or just what was that again)...I can easily transpose numbers anymore, I think I've taken one too many hits to the head--lol. I try to find humor in it.

I'll be reading through the forum and links often; at least, as much as I can stand my slow, dial-up.

 

[Dillinger]

Bernie - If you are on a budget, the aftermarket of used AR's could be a good choice for you.

if you want to build your own, we have had several members lately building their own models and have averaged about $600 to $700 for a well built, semi custom weapon.

As for the .22 cal option. You really only need a couple of pieces. It's a new bolt configuration and a magazine to feed the ammo. It changes out with a standard .223/5.56 upper in about 2 minutes and you can safely shoot it all day long with much cheaper ammo.

If you have any questions - please feel free to stop by the forum here and talk with the guys and gals. They are all quite friendly once they get to know you.

JD

 

[dragunovsks]

I was once told by my grandfather that there is no such thing as a stupid question, maybe an ignorant one but not stupid. Remember EVERYONE started out ignorant at one time or another, we learn from each other and grow on each others knowlegde.

There are lots of 'AR' type rifles to choose from and you're sure to find one in your price range from a few hundred dollars to several thousand. The AR is easily the most modified and customized/able rifles out there. Eugene Stoner would be proud if he knew how far his idea has gone. There are several calibers that are available now other than the 5.56mm. 7.62x39, .308,and the 300 Fireball are just 3 and the list goes on, and on.

I like the Remington 870, can't go wrong with a "tried and true" design. My wifes dad has an 870 that was made in 1903 and he has thrown out of shooting matches while using it. He out-shot guys with custom barrels, his gun has a 5-year old standard 870 barrel on it.

I guess nothing beats an old man with experience.

 

[jeepcreep927]

I bet his 870 wasn't made in 1903, and I am sure Mr. Stoner knows how successful his design has been, he's only passed about 10 years ago. I am just busting on you dude.

But I agree, there have a ton of posts recently on the AR platform. If those don't answer your questions Bernie, I am sure a few PM's will get you what you're looking for.

Good luck.

 

[dragunovsks]

Here you go bernie, here's about the cheapest AR you can find right now. Got it for $600, I know I spent less than what most of you guys would have but I've not had any problems out of it.

 

[bernie]

There ya' go, a fairly basic one--oh, and Hi neighbor, I'm in next to you in IL.
So, dragunovsks, do tell--Since yours has proven reliable and was fairly reasonabe, where did you come up with it--kit, used, web site, got any tips, leads for me?
I'm still checking out on the web, various ways to go.
I've encountered a slight delay--a ran across an old jeep truck I just had to have.
It needs quite a bit, but that's another hobby of mine.
I have to recover slightly on $$$, then I can make a move.
I won't start work on the truck until summer...
I can probably sneak in an AR, or at least the lower receiver...

 

[bkt]

There ya' go, a fairly basic one--oh, and Hi neighbor, I'm in next to you in IL.
So, dragunovsks, do tell--Since yours has proven reliable and was fairly reasonabe, where did you come up with it--kit, used, web site, got any tips, leads for me?
I'm still checking out on the web, various ways to go.
I've encountered a slight delay--a ran across an old jeep truck I just had to have.
It needs quite a bit, but that's another hobby of mine.
I have to recover slightly on $$$, then I can make a move.
I won't start work on the truck until summer...
I can probably sneak in an AR, or at least the lower receiver...

bernie, if you're going to build it piecemeal and you live in a state that has vestiges of the Assault Weapons Ban still in place, get a pre-ban lower. That should enable you to build whatever you want without any legal issues. If you live in a free state, the issue is moot.

 

[dragunovsks]

Bernie, I did go with about the most basic AR out there but that's because I will occasionally use it to hunt coyote and of course target practice. I bought mine from a local gunshop, 111 Gunshop in Clarksville IN. But I doubt you'll want to drive that far just to buy a rifle. It's a Century Arms but I don't know if they have any on thier website. I bought the whole rifle, complete but was told by the dealer about a kit that cost right about the same amount of money. The reason I didn't go with a kit is because I've never put a firearm together from a kit and I would probably have built this same rifle or something pretty close to it, so I didn't see the point.

Before I found this one, I almost got a 16" DPMS Panther Lite, but was swayed by the price of this rifle. Where in Illinois do you live?

Forgot to add, this rifle only came with one 30-round mag (the one in the mag well). The other mags in the pic were given to me by my dad, he had about 30 mags to spare. Of the 5 mags he gave me, only one had ever been fired from. You can probably tell which one.

 

[junho806]

http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6910

hey bernie
you can check out the AR-15 that i just finished building
JD already mentioned it
for about $100 more of what dragun payed you can get a M4 carbine style AR-15
i personally like this set up because the customization possibilities are almost endless

 

[AR Hammer]

WOW--
didn't mean to get anybody up in arms.
...
Again, I apologize, and will attempt to restrict my questions in the future.
Thank you.

Don't sweat it, you have to remember that at any given time 15% of the population is seriously mentally ill, or far right politically, or extremest in some other area of their lives...

In the case of firearms, forums attract much of that extremest, or chronically paranoid or mentally ill percentile!

This forum is particularly hard on anyone that doesn't speak it's language or share it's very narrow views.
------------------------

As for your orignal question,

The M-16 is a fully automatic weapon, usually issued to police or military.
The M-16 comes in two basic designs, one is 3 shots in a burst when the trigger is pulled, the second selection is fully automatic meaning it will fire as long as the trigger is pulled and the magazine has ammunition.

An 'AR-15' is usually referred to as the 'Civilian' version of the M-16, meaning most AR-15's have only semi-automatic, or auto loading capacity.
They fire only ONE round each time the trigger is depressed, and you have to let up on the trigger and pull it again to fire the next round.

Now, we can cover two myths about AR rifles...
1. You CAN OWN a fully automatic, military type M-16.
You will have to fill out the property BATFE paperwork, go through a background check, and purchase your fully automatic weapon through an authorized dealer and have it properly registered, but you CAN OWN 'Machine Guns' or fully automatic firearms.

Many of us 'Class 3' owners and dealers will be at Knob Creek Gun Range in Kentucky this coming weekend (10-11-12-Oct.) for a legal machine gun shoot
http://www.MachineGunShoot.com

2. Not all 'AR-15' rifles are 'Semi-Auto' or 'Civilian Legal'.
M-16 is a US Army Designation, and the Air Force was the first branch of the service to pick up the AR style rifle, still called their fully auto 'AR-15' for several years after they were adopted.
-----------------------------

'Assault Weapon' is usually a misnomer.
Depending on what you want added to, or attached to, your rifle will depend on it's 'Legality'.

In the last 'Gun Ban', things like threaded barrels for screw on accessories were not legal.
You simply pin on or weld on the accessory and it's legal.

'Pistol Grip' stocks were deemed 'Illegal', and this was quite easily circumvented by using a 'Thumb Hole' stock.

Collapsing or Folding stocks were deemed 'Illegal' and this was easily circumvented by pinning the 'Collapsible' or 'Folding' stocks in place with a 10¢ roll pin that could be removed with a punch or finishing nail in about 5 seconds if need be.

Large capacity REMOVABLE magazines were deemed 'Illegal'.
This was very easily circumvented by using a NON-Detachable magazine that still loaded from the top with stripper clips.

Many people in California, Oregon and Washington state found out the hard way, but some of the smarter guys plugged the gas tube and added an upper receiver housing that used a left side bolt handle to charge the weapon after each round, and that was legal so they got to keep their rifles when most of the 'Sheep' turned theirs in.

There were also a couple of 'Pump Action' forearm makers that converted the AR-15 over to pump action, and since it was no longer an 'Automatic Weapon', they stayed legal.
------------------------------

As for AR-15 rifles, there are tons of web sites that will have about every kind of information you can think of, (Correct & factual, or not!)

AR-15 rifles are fun to shoot, reasonably reliable and accurate out of the box.
They can be hard to clean, but they are easy to tune and upgrade for accuracy.
They usually shoot a common caliber, but don't confuse .223 Remington with 5.56MM NATO chamberings!

The 5.56mm round is dimensionally very similar to the .223 Rem round, and it will load in place of the NATO round, but it uses a type of powder that burns faster and will often jam the action of a rifle chambered for .223 Rem.

Also remember that laws can change very quickly, and a good quality AR-15 rifle being a fairly expensive purchase, you should consider that carefully before buying.
With over 75% of GUN OWNERS saying they would support an 'Assault Weapons Ban', that is a pretty large voting block that can change things very quickly!

 

[bgeddes]

I've encountered a slight delay--a ran across an old jeep truck I just had to have.

Make PERFECT sense to me!!