Looking for info

Discussion in 'Curio & Relic Discussion' started by FSUFan, Feb 2, 2009.

  1. FSUFan

    FSUFan New Member

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    Greetings. I am just now starting to find some information on a pistol that I received many many years ago from my now deceased uncle. It is a "Union I" pistol 6.35 caliber. It measures about 4.5" in length and about 3.5" high. It has several markings which I am hoping will help some people clue me in on more information about it. Here are a few pictures. Any help or if someone could tell me who to go/talk to would be great. I am in Georgia, but travel to SC often as well. TIA!

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  2. Dcomf

    Dcomf New Member

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    Just from the pics I'd venture a guess its a Spanish made clone of the 1903 Colt ala the "Ruby" style pistol.
     

  3. FSUFan

    FSUFan New Member

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    What makes you say Spanish? The stamps? I know absolutely nothing about older guns and this is pretty interesting trying to track this thing down. I feel like I need to go to an Antique's Roadshow and find out it is worth $150,000 :eek: or $20 :(

    Any ideas on who I could take it to?
     
  4. FSUFan

    FSUFan New Member

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    Sorry, here is the pic of the entire pistol and not just the close-ups.

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  5. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    Well, the circle with the letter P is the Spanish proof mark for a pistol, since 1929. Revolvers had a similar mark with an R instead of a P. There WAS a Union pistol made in France at St. Etienne. It is a .25 auto- and worth is more than $20 (if in working order and complete) but- sorry, bro- NOT $150 K. About $100. More or less.
     
  6. ScottG

    ScottG New Member

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    Well, they are nice pictures of the stamps, but how about a picture of the whole gun. I'd bet it is a european made gun because of the "cal 6.3" marking.

    I tried to make out the top of the grips because it looks like a Fabrique Nationale logo at the top. Their logo is an oval shape with the letters FN, one over the other like St L for the Cards, and N Y for the Yanks and Mets.

    FN Herstal hired JMB and from what is seen in your pix looks like the back of the Browning designed '03/'08 hammerless. It could be a baby browning I guess. But a full picture of each side of the gun would settle it for sure.
     
  7. Dcomf

    Dcomf New Member

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    Well its a little hard to tell from the pictures. You need pictures of the whole pistol to help ID it. But going from what I could recognize it very much looks like a Spanish made "Ruby" type pistol. There were over 30 manufacturers of these in Spain and some of questionable quality depending on who you talk to. The original "Ruby" pistol was made under contract by one company in Spain for the French military in WW1. They couldn't keep up with demand and subcontracted out to these other companys to make parts. Some of these others then bypassed the original contractor and dealt directly with the French.
     
  8. Dcomf

    Dcomf New Member

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    Alright, here is a breakdown of manufacturers and the models and codes. This is in no way a complete list but just gives you an idea of the number of manufacturers out there. If you notice several of them had 'Union' models. Or I could be completely off on this one. If it is indeed what I say it is then go to the Spanish pistol section over on Gunboards and ask Bob in Saint Louis what you have exactly.


    Acha y Cia, Eibar … "Acha"
    AH and AR: Acha Hermanos, Eibar or Ermunda ... "Looking Glass", sometimes the trade name was not used *Pistols marked "Looking Glass" seem to be post-WWI made*
    Domingo Acha, Eibar ... "Triplex"
    Aguirre y Cia, Eibar ... "Basculant", "Le Dragon"
    AL: Aldazabal, Leturiondo Y Cia, Eibar * ... "Aldazabal", sometimes the trade name was not used
    A. Aldazabal, Eibar * … "A.A.A."
    José Aldazabal, Eibar * ... "Imperial"
    Armas de Fuego, Guernica ... "Alkartasuna"
    AK: Fabrica de Armas Alkartasuna, SA, Guernica ... "Alkar", "Kapitan"
    V. Fabrica De Armas, Durango ... "Vencedor"
    AE: La Armeria Elgoibaresa, Eligobar ... "Lusitania"
    Apaoloza Hermanos, Zumorraga ... "Apaoloza", "Triomphe"
    Apaolozo Hermanos, Eibar ... "Paramount"
    Arana y Cia, Eibar ... "El Cano"
    Ariola Hermanos, Eibar ... "Ariola"
    A: Gaspar Arizaga, Eibar ... "Arizaga", "Misdial", "Pinkerton", "Warwinch", sometimes the trade names were not used
    AG: Francisco Arizmendi y Goenaga, Eibar ... "Ideal", "Roland", "Brunswig"
    Arizmendi y Goenaga, Eibar ... "F.A.", "F.A.G.", "Teuf-Teuf", "Waldman"
    AZ: Arizmendi, Zulaica y Cia, Eibar ... "Cebra", some may be over stamped "Beistegui Hermanos"
    Francisco Arizmendi, Eibar ... "Arizmendi", "Roland", "Singer", "Victor", "Ydeal"
    F. Arizmendi, Eibar ... "Boltun", "Guerre", "Kaba Special"
    Armero Espacialitas Reunidos, Eibar ... "Alfa", "Omega"
    Hijos de C. Arrizabalaga, Eibar ... "Arrizabalaga", "Campeon", "Especial"
    J. Arrizabalaga, Eibar ... "Esmi"
    AA: Azanza y Arrizabalaga, Eibar * … "A.A. Reims", "Modelo 1916"
    HCA: Hijos de Calixto Arrizabamaga, Eibar ... "Sharpshooter", "Terrible"
    EA: Arostegui Eulogio, Eibar ... "Azul", "E.A.", "Oscillant-Azu"
    S. Arostegui, Eibar ... "Browreduit"
    Aspiri y Cia, Eibar ... "Avion", "Colon"
    Astra Unceta y Cia, Guernica ... "Astra", "Cadix", "Camper"
    Barrenechea y Gallastegui, Eibar ... "Barrenechea"
    Hijos de Jorge Bascaran, Eibar ... "Marke", "Martigny"
    MA: Martin Bascaran, Eibar ... "Martian", "Thunder M1919"
    MB: Fa de Martin A. Bascaran, Eibar ... "Martian"
    BH: Beistegui Hermanos, Eibar ... "Beistegui", "B.H.", "Bulwark", "Libia", "Paramount", "1914 Model Automatic Pistol"
    BC: Victor Bernedo y Cia, Eibar ... "B.C.", "Bernedo", sometimes the trade names were not used
    VB: Victor Bernado y Cia, Eibar. No trade names used. *Some may have extended barrels*
    BA: Fab. de Bersaluzze Arieto-Aurena Y Cia, Eibar ... "Allies"
    GB: Gregorio Bolumburo, Eibar ... "Deluxe", "Gloria", "Giralda", "Marina", "Regent", "Regina", "Rex"
    G. Bolumburu, Eibar ... "Bolumburo", "Bristol"
    Crucelegui Hermanos, Eibar ... "Brong Petit", "Bron-Sport", "C.H.", "Le Brong", "Puppy"
    JE: Javier Echaniz, Eibar ... "Defender"
    Echave y Arizmendi, Eibar ... "Basque", "Bronco", "E.A.", "Echasa", "Lightning", "Lur-Panzer", "Pathfinder", "Protector", "Renard", "Selecta M1918", "Selecta M1919", "Vite M1913", "Vite M1914", "Vite M1915"
    I: Bonifacio Echeverria, Eibar ... "Estrella", "Izarra", "Star", "Vesta"
    HE: Hijos de A. Echeverria, Eibar ... "Vesta" (code may also be marked on slide), "Izarro"
    EC: Ergulaga y Cia, Eibar ... "Fiel"
    Manuel Escodin, Eibar ... "Escodin"
    Esperanza y Cia, Guernica ... "Astra"
    Esperanza y Unceta, Eibar ... "Astra:, "Campo Giro"
    EU: Esperanza y Unceta, Guernica ... "Model 1915" ( or 1916 ), "Astra Patent", "Brunswig Model 1916", "Victory"
    Antonio Errasti, Eibar ... "Dreadnought", "Errasti", "Oicet", "Smith Americano"
    A. Errasti, Eibar ... "Broncho"
    Esprin Hermanos, Eibar ... "Euskaro"
    Gabilondo y Cia, Eibar or Elgoibar ... "Danton", "Guisasola", "Mugica", "Perfect", "Plus Extra"
    GU: Gabilondo y Urresti, Eibar or Elgoibar ... "Bufalo", "Gabilondos", "Radium", "Ruby", "Ruby Extra", "Tauler"
    Fab. de Armas Garantizada, Eibar ... "Apache", "Garantizada", "Rural"
    GN: Garate, Anitua y Cia, Eibar ... "Danton", "El Lunar", "Express", "GAC", "Garate", "G.N.", "La Lira", "L'Eclair", "Sprinter", "Tigre", "Triumph"
    Garate Hermanos, Eibar or Ermua ... "Cantabria", "Velostark"
    Gastanaga, Trocaola y Cia, Eibar ... "T.A.C.", "Trocaola"
    IG: Isidrio Gatzanaga, Eibar ... "Destroyer", "Gazantanaga", "Horse Destroyer", "Indian", "Sureté"
    IS: Iraola y Salaverria y Cia ... No trade names used
    Fab. d'armes de Grande Précision, Eibar ... "Bulwark", "Colonial", "Grande Précision", "Helvece", "Jupiter", "Minerve", "Trust"
    Guisasola Hermanos, Eibar ... "G.H.", "Guisasola"
    LC: Laplana y Capdevila ... Trade names are unknown
    Larranaga y Elartza, Eibar ... "Jubala", "L.E."
    LH: Lasangabaster Hermanos, Eibar ... "Douglas"
    Lascauren y Olasola, Eibar ... "El Perro"
    Manufactura de Armas "Demon", Eibar ... "Demon"
    Mendiola, Eibar ... "Vainquer"
    Erquiaga Muguruzu y Cia, Eibar ... "Diane", "Fiel"
    Urquiaga y Muguruzu, Eibar ... "Marte"
    Obrea Hermanos, Eibar ... "Colon", "Iris", "La Industrial", "O.H.", "Orbea", "Perfecto"
    Cooperativa Obrera, Eibar ... "Longines"
    IO: La Industria Obrea, Eibar ... No trade names used
    Ojanguren y Marcaido, Eibar ... "Brow", "O.M."
    Ojanguren y Vidosa, Eibar ... "Apache", "Crucero", "Furia", "Militar Y Policia", "Ojanguren", "Puppet", "Salvaje", "Tanque"
    Onandia Hermanos, Eibar ... "Onandia"
    F. Ormachea, Eibar ... "Bron-Grand", "Duan", "Merke"
    Orueta Hermanos, Eibar ... "Oculto", "Tanker"
    RH: Retolaza Hermanos, Eibar ... "Brompetier", "Gallus", "Liberty", "Military", "Paramount", "Puppy", "Retolaza M1914", "Stosel", "Titan", "Titanic", "Titanic M1914", "Velo-Brom", "1914 Model Automatic Pistol"
    Santiago Salaberrin, Eibar ... "Etna", "Invicta", "Protector", "Tisan", "Unis"
    Iraola Salaverria y Cia, Eibar ... "Destructor", "Iraola", "Salaverria"
    Casimir Santos, Eibar ... "El Cid", "Vencedor"
    MS: Modesto Santos, Eibar … "Action", "M.S."
    S.E.A.M., Eibar ... "Praga", "Regent", "Silesia", "Sivispacem", "Waco"
    Suinaga y Aramperri, Eibar ... "S&A"
    Unceta y Cia, Guernica ... "Brunswig", "Fortuna", "Leston", "Liégeoise", "Museum", "Salso", "Union", "Victoria"
    Union Armera Eibaressa, Eibar ... "U.A.E."
    Union Fab. de Armas, Eibar ... "Rival M1913"
    Tomas de Urizar, Eibar or Barcelona ... "Continental", "Dek-Du", "Express", "Imperial", "La Basque", "Le Secours", "Phoenix", "Premier", "Princeps", "Puma", "Union", "Venus"
    UC: Urrejola y Cia, Eibar ... "U.C.", "Urrejola"
    ZC: Zulaica y Compania or Cia, Eibar ... "Royal", "Victory", "Vincitor M1914", "Vincitor M1914 No.2", "Zulaica M1914"
    Zuloga y Cia, Eibar ... "Volontaire"
    Zumorraga y Cia, Eibar ... "Paramount"
    CU: unknown
    CZ: unknown
    RG: unknown
    TM: unknown
    VD: unknown
    Unknown Makers ... "Aurora", "Boix", "Burgham Superior", "Ca-Si", "Cobra", "Mosser", "Muxi", "Oyez", "Peerless", "Rayon", "R.E.", "Reform", "Republic", "Rex", "S.M.", "Tatra", "Velo-Mith", "Velosmith", "Vilar", "Vulcain", "Zwylacka"
     
  9. Hawg

    Hawg New Member

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    Top left is a Spanish Ruby.

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  10. rs7216

    rs7216 New Member

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    Spanish Handgun UNION

    the following is from SPANISH HANDGUNS by Gene Gangarosa Jr.
    Table 3: Guide to 6.35mm Spanish Pistols made prior to 1936......
    Pistol Name..Union
    Slide Serrations..Straight
    Safety Device..Eibar type
    Ignition Method..Hammer
    Other Remarks..Sold by Seytres, a French gun dealer, but made by or for Unceta y Cia

    Hope that helps....

    The gun I am searching for is a 7.65mm with Curved Serrations, an Eibar safety and the name "MARIE" If any one has info on that, please let me know.

    Thanks, Ralph
     
  11. BillM

    BillM Active Member Supporter

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    P in a circle with crown---Eibar semi-auto pistol proof
    X in shield with helmeted head on top--Eibar proof house
    "admission" stamp
    E with a star above. Eibar code for 1931 manufacture
     
  12. mlowery

    mlowery New Member

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    I too, have a pistol that looks just like yours but in the hand grips it has "SUPERIOR" and on the barrel it has "THE VERITABLE MOSSER AUTOMATIC PISTOL SUPERIOR 6.35". There are no other marks like you have on yours except for an "F" and an "S" by the saftey which I think stands for fire and safe. Mine appears to be newer and has a black leather case that would go on a belt. The blueing on this one is good. I found it going through my mother in laws things we put in storage, she is in assisted living now. We also found a model 90 pump 22 long rifle that has the octagon barrel. I would like information about this pistol too if anyone knows. Can you purchase ammo for this pistol? TIA
     
  13. WILDCATT

    WILDCATT New Member

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    spanish guns

    that was one of thousands of low cost pistols made between 1900 & 1940.
    they sold in US for around $10 maybe less.they work but wont stand constant shooting,they were made to protect.many never got fired but wore away fron neglect.I have had many of them before WW2.they are not trash but they are not gold either.at this date they are worth what some one wants to pay,not over a $100.:rolleyes::eek:
     
  14. bladecastleton

    bladecastleton New Member

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    Union I's younger brother

    I am on the same mission to discover the real origin behind the UNION automatic pistol as well. I have in my possesion a UNION II automatic pistol. In doing my research I found that it is not a spanish 'ruby', but in fact it is french. I have not found out what my markings mean... but I found a stamp/markings diagram for older guns and the pistol might have been used in WWII by someone in the German Army... Not sure though... My stamps are a prancing lion, a capital "A" with a dot on the top, and a shield with an older knight helmet on top with an "X" in the middle of the shield. I also have a name that is scratched into the pistol case. "Winston Thompson". Not sure who that is but I am willing to give this search a go.
     
  15. chuckcory

    chuckcory New Member

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    I have a slight variation of the same gun

    My father brought mine back from WW2. It has the exact same marking on it, except it says Automatic Pistol Cal 6.35 and under that it says Regent. On the other side above the serial number is an oval with the letters FG.

    This pistol has a history though. It was used by a german civilian about 2 days after the war had ended to kill by fathers tank commander. When he tried to fire it at my father if had jamed after the first shot. My father shot the shooter and took and kept the weapon. Interestingly enough every time we had tried to fire it over the years, it fires the first time but jams. It has never fired a second shot. The serial is 47142.
     
  16. Kalash1138

    Kalash1138 New Member

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    couple of more to add:

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    the .32 has {X} with crown P.V. and lion on hind legs ser# 68014 and 1928 on frame with letters ERM C or O after that.

    the .25 has 6.35 3 didget ser# Spain and MODEL AUTOMATIC PISTOL as the only stamp marks on it.

    Both need firing pins & springs and the .32 needs some grips, anyone point to a good source?