[BigO01]

Well if Kimber is such a great "out of the box" Competition gun why is it it wasn't used by two of the best shooters in the world ?

Todd Jarret shoots for Para and then there is Brian Enos as a matter of fact Enos shot with a "Garbage gun" if you think Taurus is crap surely you must think the same of EAA and that is exactly who he shot for at the end of his career .
And in Brians own words

won quite a few USPSA Area Limited Championships and two Steel Challenge Limited Class National Championships over the next eight years.

Now how could this be when he wasn't shooting a great weapon like a Kimber ?

Lets list some of the very best of the best and see if they use Kimber

Doug Koenig Nope , Kimber not listed as a sponsor

Rob Leatham Nope he shoots Springfield

Eric Grauffel
1999 World Shoot XII
Cebu, Philippines

Eric Grauffel

Eric Grauffel, an 18 year old French student, has already won most of the titles in Europe and now holds the title IPSC World Champion!

www.armscor.com.ph/eric.htm

well now wont that make you choke Defender , not only is this guy a world class shooter but he apparently shoots for Armscor and does shooting clinics for them . Still not a single major player in the game shooting Kimber HMM .

So tell us again how great Kimber is when not a single one of the very best shooters on the planet use them .

Since the World Champion shoots Armscor it sounds like Kimber is nothing more than a "Wannabe" compared to Armscor I guess I can now bestow the title of Garbage gun on Kimber huh ? After all who cares what those under the top dog shoot , winning is what matters all second place is the first looser in a long line of losers .

So go ahead and shoot your crap overpriced Kimber I shoot a brand chosen by and made for World Champions .

 

[FALPhil]

There is a lot of mudslinging going on in this thread, and the vast majority of it has no basis in provable fact, but is based on anecdotal evidence, which is to say, it is merely anecdotal.

Here are the facts that I am willing to go to the mat on. As for background, I own 5 1911s and no two are the same brand. I have tuned (trigger jobs, slide & busing tightening, etc.) around 20 for friends and aquaintences. I understand the 1911 system.

1. Any 1911 on the market can be made accurate and reliable. Heck, my first 1911 was an Auto Ordnance on a cast frame where the rails were out of parallel and uneven height. Guess what? A little elbow grease and some aftermarket parts made it a sub 2 inch gun at 50 yards and it was completly reliable.

2. Almost all new 1911s require a break-in period. Some of the biggest names in the 1911 business, including Wilson, will tell you not to expect reliability for the first 500 rounds on a factory gun, even a high priced one. There are exceptions for individual guns. Custom and semi-custom guns do not fall into this category.

3. 1911s made in the USA will cost more than those made in developing countries, even if the quality is equal. This occurs for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the US government places more burdens (tax and non-tax) on corporations than almost any other country in the world. Price is not a reliable indicator of quality.

4. Sales and marketing efforts count for a lot. Apple does not make the best portable music player. Oracle makes a pretty mediocre database engine. Yet both are market leaders. Market share is not a reliable indicator of quality.

5. A lot of people make statements about what is 'best' based on what they own, and not any testing they, or anyone else, have done. Any time anyone makes one of these statements, your response should be, "what empirical test are you referring to which might support your assertion?"

6. Decisions by government entities and departments are not made on logic, and rarely made based on specifications and testing. The criteria for most government purchases is how easy it is to piggyback on a procurement contract. They should not be used as an indication of quality of any product, especially firearms.

7. Champion shooters do not use mass produced guns that you or I can go into a store and buy out of the store's stock.

All that being said, the 1911 in my collection that I like the most is a semi-custom based on a Norinco frame. I did all the work myself. I'll put it up against any 1911 for reliability. I also own a Kimber, a Springfield, a Charles Daly, and one on a home made frame that was machined in halves and brazed together. None are box stock. All required tuning to make them 99.99% reliable, even the most expensive one, the Kimber. At the end of the day, they are all pretty much equivalent. I cannot point to one and say it is 'better'. All have features that are different from the others.

I do not own a Taurus, but have seriously considered one. The people I know that have them are very satisfied. But that is merely anecdotal.

 

[Boris]

Just to put the cherry on the cake I shoot arguably the best out of the box, knock your socks off semi automatic pistol period............Sig 210-6.....

 

[Defender]

Posted by BigO01:

Eric Grauffel
1999 World Shoot XII
Cebu, Philippines

Eric Grauffel

Eric Grauffel, an 18 year old French student, has already won most of the titles in Europe and now holds the title IPSC World Champion!

www.armscor.com.ph/eric.htm

well now wont that make you choke Defender , not only is this guy a world class shooter but he apparently shoots for Armscor and does shooting clinics for them . Still not a single major player in the game shooting Kimber HMM .

So tell us again how great Kimber is when not a single one of the very best shooters on the planet use them .

Since the World Champion shoots Armscor it sounds like Kimber is nothing more than a "Wannabe" compared to Armscor I guess I can now bestow the title of Garbage gun on Kimber huh ? After all who cares what those under the top dog shoot , winning is what matters all second place is the first looser in a long line of losers .

So go ahead and shoot your crap overpriced Kimber I shoot a brand chosen by and made for World Champions .

BWAAAAHAAAAAHAAAAAA!

You've just proven yourself to be an absolute know-nothing!

Eric Grauffel does NOT use Armscor pistols!

He only uses Armscor AMMUNITION!

Here's PROOF from Grauffel's own official website (Click on the link below, then click on "Eric's Info", then click on "Sponsors":

http://www.ericgrauffel.com/

Grauffel uses HIGHLY CUSTOMIZED Tanfoglio "race" pistols, made in ITALY, which aren't sold "over the counter" in gun shops. Comparing a CUSTOM RACE PISTOL costing THOUSANDS of dollars to ANY "over the counter" 1911, REGARDLESS of brand, is SHEER IDIOCY.

Here's a photo of a Tanfoglio (Definitely NOT an Armscor garbage gun!):

 

[Defender]

Just to put the cherry on the cake I shoot arguably the best out of the box, knock your socks off semi automatic pistol period............Sig 210-6.....

If you read my last post, you'll find your cherry is actually a turd. Eat hearty, old boy!

 

[Defender]

Posted by BigO01:

Well if Kimber is such a great "out of the box" Competition gun why is it it wasn't used by two of the best shooters in the world ?

Todd Jarret shoots for Para and then there is Brian Enos as a matter of fact Enos shot with a "Garbage gun" if you think Taurus is crap surely you must think the same of EAA and that is exactly who he shot for at the end of his career .

As usual, both your logic and knowledge of firearms are in the crapper.

You're confusing HIGHLY CUSTOMIZED "Race" pistols built specially for those competitors you named, at a cost of THOUSANDS of dollars, to "over the counter" personal defensive firearms like Kimber.

That's like comparing one of John Force's Funny Cars to a car purchased at your local car dealership.

Apples and oranges, son.

Oh, by the way, I NEVER said anything bad about Springfield or Para. If you were a better reader, you would've caught the following, that I posted on page one of this very thread:

Posted by Defender on 9-14-2008:

Springfield and Para-Ordnance deserve a look. I'd avoid Taurus, as their quality control has been VERY spotty over the years.

 

[Boris]

Defender: I did say out of the box.......Dr. Boris suggests slowing down and shoot more revolvers.......................

 

[FALPhil]

Just to put the cherry on the cake I shoot arguably the best out of the box, knock your socks off semi automatic pistol period............Sig 210-6.....

Ehhh, probably not. You need to check out the C-96.

 

[Boris]

Ehhh, probably not. You need to check out the C-96.

Phil

Had a couple but I would have to checkmate with the Sig 210 in 7.67mm Para...... glad to see humour is not dead on this forum.....

 

[FALPhil]

Boris, I wansn't being funny. There are very few handguns that I can hold 4 inches at 100 yards offhand. The one P210 I shot was not one of them. However, I have shot many a C-96 that accurately.

 

[SGT-MILLER]

Are you talking about the 7.63 x 25mm Mauser, 9 x 19mm Parabellum, 9mm Mauser Export (which is pretty rare), 8.15 Mauser, 7.65 x 22mm Parabellum, or the Chinese .45 ACP model C96 Mauser pistol?

I know that the barrel length for the longest model is 5.5 inches. I'm just wondering how you are getting your 4 inch groupings at 100 yards. I'm not trying to disprove you or anything, I'm just curious that's all. Did you have some type of optics, the shoulder stock, or did you use open sights?

Just curious because that's really good shooting out of a 5.5 inch barrel, and I want to know the trick. The sig P210 can average a 3-4 inch group at 50 yards, and I think that is outstanding for a pistol.

P.S. What is the rifling on that pistol? Did Mauser use a specific rifling to coax the needed accuracy out of the rounds to achieve good groupings at 50-100 yards (I know the sig p210 is running about a 1 in 9 twist, but it's a little closer actually to a 1 in 10 twist)?

 

[Boris]

Boris, I wansn't being funny. There are very few handguns that I can hold 4 inches at 100 yards offhand. The one P210 I shot was not one of them. However, I have shot many a C-96 that accurately.

We will have to disagree my friend a 210 will shoot the pants off just about everything out of the box from my experience.........

 

[Defender]

Defender: I did say out of the box.......Dr. Boris suggests slowing down and shoot more revolvers.......................

I'll pass on shooting more revolvers.

At the private outdoor range I'm a member at, the revolver shooters don't fare too well against my 5" Kimber 1911. I've made them look bad on more than one occasion.

 

[Boris]

I'll pass on shooting more revolvers.

At the private outdoor range I'm a member at, the revolver shooters don't fare too well against my 5" Kimber 1911. I've made them look bad on more than one occasion.[/QUOTE

Who where you shooting against, members of the local care home, hardly fair old boy it's quite difficult to group off a zimmer frame...........

 

[Defender]

I'll pass on shooting more revolvers.

At the private outdoor range I'm a member at, the revolver shooters don't fare too well against my 5" Kimber 1911. I've made them look bad on more than one occasion.[/QUOTE

Who where you shooting against, members of the local care home, hardly fair old boy it's quite difficult to group off a zimmer frame...........

No, actually most of them are younger guys who shoot more than I do.

I shoot more accurately than most of the revolver guys at the range, and they don't stand a chance when it comes to rapid-fire.

 

[cpttango30]

It is amazing how this thread as turned into a "My Richard is bigger than your Richard" thread.

Go and buy what ever 1911 you want and be happy.

go over to http://www.1911forum.com/ They can be a little uppity at times but the knowladge of the 1911 floating around over there is amazing. You will see some damn good 1911 smiths over there as well. good luck with your 1911.

 

[Boris]

It is amazing how this thread as turned into a "My Richard is bigger than your Richard" thread.

Go and buy what ever 1911 you want and be happy.

go over to http://www.1911forum.com/ They can be a little uppity at times but the knowladge of the 1911 floating around over there is amazing. You will see some damn good 1911 smiths over there as well. good luck with your 1911.

OK....spoil sport, it was just getting interesting, I was about to ask how long Defender had been shooting with his local Ladies Knitting Circle, humour would be extremely therapeutic as this lad takes life a little too seriously, and I so enjoy his posts..............................

 

[frank_1947]

What is a C-96 is it a pistol, forgive me I dont know much more then 1911,2011, and a few revolver numbers and names, but I read in this reallly long gun bashing thread somewhere about a C-96 of hand 4 inch group at 100 yards, I am really sorry but I do not believe that, and the only C-96 I can think of was called a broomhandle and I had one for many years my uncle brought back from Germany after WW2, the one I had shot a 30 cal mauser if I remember correctly.

 

[Mark F]

C-96??? I saw that on a food ration label once... or it could have been the name of a movie. I forget now.

 

[Boris]

What is a C-96 is it a pistol, forgive me I dont know much more then 1911,2011, and a few revolver numbers and names, but I read in this reallly long gun bashing thread somewhere about a C-96 of hand 4 inch group at 100 yards, I am really sorry but I do not believe that, and the only C-96 I can think of was called a broomhandle and I had one for many years my uncle brought back from Germany after WW2, the one I had shot a 30 cal mauser if I remember correctly.

Yes you are right it was originally chambered for the 7.63 mm (or 30 Mauser), and neither do I, thanks to MarkF for the picture, a 'Red Nine' but same horse different colour, and if that one is yours you are a very lucky fellow.........