Long range with a .223, how possible?

Discussion in 'General Rifle Discussion' started by zhuk, Nov 18, 2010.

  1. zhuk

    zhuk New Member

    2,031
    0
    0
    OK this is just a pre-emptive question...due to certain 'adjustments in range politics' my club may be able to gain access to the fullbore range sometime in the future. It goes out to 800m (only one other range in the State has this capability) and there have been suggestions about holding our regular Service Rifle comps at 600m>down to 100m or maybe even 800m down :eek: (rofl)


    Would I be totally insane in thinking a .223 might be capable of stretching to these distances? (currently using the club's Tikkas) Our 'usual' comps are 300>100m, with the mythical 400m shoots scheduled but something has always come up with the "range template" to prevent these so I haven't had the opportunity to try that distance as yet...

    Hopefully with the new political atmosphere, that won't be an issue now, just thought I'd ask about the practical possibility. Any opinions?
     
  2. Highpower

    Highpower New Member

    1,546
    0
    0
    A standard "across-the-course" match here is 200 - 600 yards, and the AR15/M16 doesn't have any problem with it so I would not shy away from 600 meters. A fast twist and heavy bullets help of course. :p

    800 meters on the other hand..... :rolleyes:
     

  3. Dgunsmith

    Dgunsmith New Member

    426
    0
    0
    With the correct ammo....like Black Hills Heavy Match OTM...you can do it.
     
  4. spittinfire

    spittinfire New Member Supporter

    9,663
    2
    0
    600 is not a problem. I shot 500 in the USMC with the crappy issued stuff and could hit a man sized target 10 out of 10. I see no reason why you couldn't do this.
     
  5. M14sRock

    M14sRock New Member

    5,549
    0
    0
    Get some heavy (75-77gr) and a 1/7 or 1/8 and you will be golden at 600 and should be fine to 800.
     
  6. JTJ

    JTJ Well-Known Member Supporter

    9,568
    184
    63
    I know shooters that regularly compete at 1000 yds with the AR in 5.56x45/223 and do quite well. You can shoot 223 in a gun chambered for 5.56x45 but military chamber pressures are higher so dont shoot mil spec 5.56x45 in guns chambered for 223.
     
  7. Sniper03

    Sniper03 Supporting Member Supporter

    7,669
    70
    48
    600 yard

    As stated you do not want to shoot 5.56 NATO Cal. in a Remington 223 Chamber. There are dimensional differences that increase the pressure as well as military ammunition has higher chamber pressures. In the bolt gun chambered for the true Remington 223 Cal. you will likely feel resistance in the final process of closing the bolt! "Don't use 5.56 in these chambers. By forcing the bolt closed in the last instance you have increased your chamber pressure by about 20,000 psi!!!! Most all of the modern production AR Rifles are truly chambered for 5.56 NATO as well as some of the newer bolt rifles. You can find out by using a Throat Erosion gauge!
    Reference the question about 600 yard for the 5.56 the competitive shooters at Camp Perry at the Nationals shoot the 5.56 at 600 yards in their competition. So not at all out of the question. The biggest factor of the 223/5.56 at longer distances is the wind effect upon bullet flight.
     
  8. jpattersonnh

    jpattersonnh Active Member

    5,360
    3
    38
    Not true at all. You can chamber a 5.56 in a .223 bolt gun w/ no resistance, but it does run a higher pressure. 20,000psi is BS! BTW, a CIP .223 chamber is similar to a Wylde chamber and will have no issue w/ 5.56x45 nato spec ammo. .223 rifles have a shorter throat and therefor limit bullet jump. The longer throat and shoulder angle of a 5.56 chamber allows for the extra pressure. Are you an armorer? My buddy Phil is at Ft Drum. He retired from the military, but still works as an armorer there as his full time job. I call you forevermore, Sniper wanna be!
     
  9. Sniper03

    Sniper03 Supporting Member Supporter

    7,669
    70
    48
    You are correct in general but we have experienced the situation previously mentioned. Possibly due to ammunition that may have not been to spec. But regardless the problem can exist. Along as you stated the pressures are higher due to the case wall variations and loads.
    In past years with a real tight Remington 223 Chamber we have experienced a problem particularly with the AR Rifles. And one Sako Bolt Rifle. I did take some offense to your mannerism regarding the sniper comment. Several years as a true sniper and instructor. I generally do not attempt to make unnecessary comments about my fellow shooters and sportsmen.
    I hope it made you feel better!
     
  10. jpattersonnh

    jpattersonnh Active Member

    5,360
    3
    38
    You made a blanket statement which I don't agree with. Not all "new" .223 AR's are 5.56 spec. A U.S. .223 chamber is a .223 chamber. You may get a few rounds (1...1000) down range before an "oh Sh!t" happens. It may be a seizure, it may be a failure. Bad Ju Ju in my book. But than again, I'm an old anal Fart. I also come from the school that I own rifles, not weapons. W/ my open sight AR I can hit a 18" plate at 600 yards. I also have a nice collection of vintage "snipers" that will hit 12" at 800 yards.
    You are new here, and show no info to back up your statement. If I were a former sniper, I sure would not advertize it . Check out Lightfighter.com, lots of wanna be's. Humility is a great way to start. You use a "handle", I use my name.

    If you want to have a real discussion, PM me.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2010
  11. zhuk

    zhuk New Member

    2,031
    0
    0
    Appreciate the replies guys. No need to pursue the 5.56NATO vs .223 angle, as its bolt actions only in Aust and my club reloads .223 for all those without their own rifles yet. I'd be using a Tikka lite 1/8 twist...but the club stuff is commonly 55gr (lol)

    Who knows our armourer might bump this up a lil if we do end up shooting at this longer range :p


    Good to know there's only "operator error" preventing success at these distances (OK possibly not 800, might have to borrow a SMLE for that, depending lol)

    In other words, my usual handicap :D
     
  12. M14sRock

    M14sRock New Member

    5,549
    0
    0
    A Tikka 1/8 is creamy and delicious......
     
  13. Sniper03

    Sniper03 Supporting Member Supporter

    7,669
    70
    48
  14. King Ghidora

    King Ghidora New Member

    37
    0
    0
    A 1:8 twist will definitely handle a much heavier bullet than the 55 gr. stuff you mention. I shoot 69 and 72 gr. bullets in my 1:9 twist Savage without any major accuracy problems. The 69 does better but the 72 gr. will run pretty well. With bullets that heavy you can get out to 800-1000 yards according to what I've read. My local range only gets out to 440 yards (almost exactly 400 meters) and I can hit a 3" target consistently from that distance. I'd like to find a place to shoot longer distances but I can't.

    I don't have an AR type rifle though. I have a Savage 12 LRPV which is made for long range shooting. I'd guess that Tikka would do quite well at longer ranges. Quite a few people shoot 1000 yards with heavier bullets and some even go to 1200 yards or more. That's what I see people writing as I said before. I haven't had a chance to try it myself. I have very little doubt a Tikka would have no trouble shooting 600 yards accurately. I would guess my Savage would do better though. ;)

    Good luck and happy smoke trails.
     
  15. zhuk

    zhuk New Member

    2,031
    0
    0

    Appreciate the info. Damn if you can get a 3" group at 400m :eek: well that's some very decent shooting indeed!


    Thanks everyone, that's put my mind at ease over this question. So, all I have to concentrate on is the 'nut behind the wheel' if you get me...as is always the case :D
     
  16. willfully armed

    willfully armed New Member

    2,096
    1
    0
    So do we call you ARMORER wanna be?



    Just couldnt let it go could you?





    Congratulations, you both have made correct statements about the differences in the rounds.

    #1 to point out though, you COULD shoot 40 S&W in a Glock 20, and it would work for a while, BUT WHY IN THE F*** WOULD YOU DO IT IN THE FIRST PLACE!

    5.56 will run in a 223 chamber.
    You will have excessive pressures.
    You will have accelerated erosion.
    You will eventually experience failure.
     
  17. King Ghidora

    King Ghidora New Member

    37
    0
    0
    Hey I appreciate the compliment but this Savage is a dream rifle. It just shoots great and way better than I ever have before. It has a bull barrel 26" long and it's a single shot. It came with a target action and trigger that's adjustable down to 6 oz's. But realistically it won't go lower than about 12 oz.s because it resets the AccuTrigger when you close the bolt if it gets set lower than that. I've been amazed at how well this thing shoots. It's like you can't make it bounce around and get off target. It's too heavy. Not much for hunting but it's a great varmint rifle. It's essentially the same rifle Savage uses in F class competition except it has a barrel that's 4" shorter. The guys on the Savage board say the 26" barrel is actually better than the 30" barrel though.

    FWIW I've seen all sorts of rifles that can shoot pretty accurate a 400m. I think the Savage is better but then again it was made for that kind of shooting.

    Go to this web page and check out the main video there. It shows what Savage has been doing with their stock rifles. And Tikka is right up there with Savage IMO. They make great rifles. My rifle is very similar to the F class rifles except for the barrel length and mine has a H-S Precision stock which was originally developed for the military as a sniper rifle stock. Add in the fact that it's only a single shot and you get a lot of stiffness which helps a lot too. I have the right bolt, left feed model of the LRPV. It's just a very nice rifle and shoots way better than I can.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2010
  18. WhipLash

    WhipLash New Member

    28
    0
    0
    5.56 NATO vs .223 in my Mini 14

    All this talk about 5.56 NATO and .223 ammo confuses me somewhat. I have an older model Mini 14 and I wonder if I should avoid shooting 5.56 NATO ammo though it. I bought it new sometime in mid 1990s, so it is 10 - 15 years old. I have never shot any 5.56 NATO ammo through this rifle. Any info will be helpful. I am hearing people say it is okay to shoot the 5.56 NATO ammo and others saying it isn't. Any one know the answer to my question?
     
  19. doctherock

    doctherock New Member

    5,132
    1
    0
    you have to make sure your gun can handle 5.56. Mine states it on the barell.