Long range shooting

Discussion in 'General Rifle Discussion' started by opaww, Mar 11, 2010.

  1. opaww

    opaww New Member

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    The reasons behind peoples want for long range shooting varies as does the reasons for anything we do. Though for the most part most people see a challenge in being able to hit a target at great distances with accuracy.

    Many never gave thought to any shooting over the common distance for dear until Hollywood made some or other movie about a sniper shooting the bad guy at a greatly exaggerated distance.

    If you take a look at the average distance that real snipers in the world have made shots there are some common ranges mostly between 300-700 yards. Here is listed just a few of the very extreme shots taken.

    From Feb. 1967 until March 2002 the record was held by none other then Carlos Hathcock (U.S. Marine) during the Vietnam War. Carlos took his shot with a scope mounted M2 Browning .50 Cal. machine gun. The range was 2,347 yards = 7,041 feet or just about 1 and ¼ miles.

    In March 2002 the record was broken by Master Corporal Rob Furlong from Newfoundland, Canada during the Afghanistan War. 2,657 yards =7,971 feet or a respectable distance of 1 and 1/2 miles. Rob used a .50 Cal. BMG McMillan TAC-50 bolt-action rifle.

    There have been a few others who exceeded 1000-yard kills but not to dam many. It is assumed that if one has a rifle that can shoot that distance then they can hit a target. Most people who want to shoot great distances do not fully understand the matrix involved. It is not as simple as pointing and pulling the trigger.

    Some things that affect the bullet for a kill when traveling down range are but not limited to.

    1. Velocity in flight
    2. Foot Poundage of the bullet at impact
    3. Ballistic Coefficient of the bullet
    4. Elevation
    5. Angle of the shot (down hill/up hill)
    6. Distance of target from shooter
    7. Movement speed of the target
    8. Wind
    9. Humidity
    10. Temperature
    11. Cold bore shot
    12. Weapon and scope
    13. Time to target
    14. Obstructions
    15. Mental and Physical condition of the shooter

    Everything listed plays a part in hitting a target even at mid range. Naturally a .22lr will not do much of **** at 200+ yards, but a 5.56 will more then likely make the kill from 0-400 yards and can kill further out but we start really seeing effects listed above come into play with such a light bullet.

    A 308 (7.62x51 Nato) should see some good results out to 700-800 yards but again the listed things that can affect the accuracy of the shot still come into play. Even with the .50 Cal. Barrett one may be able to throw led down range at a great distance but without the proper knowledge and use of the list above one will not hit a dam thing that you aim at.

    All the fancy rifles and scopes will not make a kill if the shooter is ignorant of the matrix of long range shooting. Some about the matrix of shooting long range in another part later sense I am not training snipers but hoping rather some will use the information to better their target shooting skills.

    opaww
     
  2. Silvertip 44

    Silvertip 44 New Member

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    You hit the nail square on the head. The quality of the rifle and its sighting system is, of course, one of the two most important factors. The second is the ability of the person behind the stock and trigger who understands and is capable of overcoming all the variables that you have listed.
    Maybe you should include age of the shooter, because in my aging years I have learned that is one very important factor as well.
     

  3. opaww

    opaww New Member

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    I will include age in the part about Mental and Physical condition of the shooter, thanks for reminding me. ( age plays a part in what I remember)
     
  4. Rick1967

    Rick1967 Well-Known Member

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    I have seen some of the movies you are talking about. But I thought that was just a bunch of Hollywood hype. I had no adea that someone had actually made a shot at a distance like that. Incredible! Thanks for the info.
     
  5. IGETEVEN

    IGETEVEN New Member

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    Very nice points there Opaww, and pretty much the gospel truth sir, IMHO.

    I would like to also point out and make clear, that none of us really have "sniper" rifles, just specially tailored, long range "hunting" rifles.

    Their only real purposes are distance target shooting and to bring down many different types of varmints and mammals. ;)

    Jack
     
  6. cpttango30

    cpttango30 New Member

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    Last edited: Mar 11, 2010
  7. IGETEVEN

    IGETEVEN New Member

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    Here is some more true life and documented material; Snipers: Inside the Crosshairs.

    http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f61/sniper-inside-crosshairs-21624/

    There will be a quiz tomorrow over the material, bring a # 2 pencil with a good eraser and some scratch paper. :p

    Jack
     
  8. opaww

    opaww New Member

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    Long range shooting Part II

    Let us take a look at one of the things that effect our shooting with the ability to hit a target. That is bullet drop; believe it or not there are people who actually believe that a bullet travels in a straight line from end of barrel to target regardless of range.

    Sorry but no bullet travels straight, but rather they arc, but the reason that a projectile has an apparent rise is due to elevation of the muzzle in order to place it into the proper arc to hit distant points. Most bullets start out with a very small drop out of the barrel then rise up to their apogee by 50 yards if one is sighted in for 100 yards. Then the drop of the bullet at 100 yards should be zero, in other words the bullet crosses its line of sight at 100 yards to hit the target where you aimed at.

    The further a bullet travels the more the drop, thus the higher you must aim to compensate for the rapid drop of the bullet.

    The Ballistic Table here is based on the same round I shoot, 168 gr HPBT Match. These I hand load to with in 1/10th of a grain of RL-15 Powder. So I get almost the same performance out of each round.

    If you look at the chart you will see that the given bullet still has enough velocity and Energy at 1000 yards to make a kill but and yes there is a but here, the Trajectory at 1000 yards has a drop that is to ridicules to try and compensate for even a good hit on target.

    The drop of this bullet at 1000 yards is +/- 445 inches, this equates to +/- 37 feet from the Height of the barrel above ground. So in order for me to hit the target at 1000 yards I would need to aim 37 feet above center of target. All this would be based of perfect conditions, (No wind to tend with).

    I can effectively reduce this massive drop at 1000 yards by zeroing at a longer range out. However the same drop is still there it is just that you are aiming higher at zero for a longer range. If you zero at 500 yards it just means that you are aiming 65 inches higher then you did at 100 yards in order to get the bullet to arc on target. So the arc is greater up to Apogee, but in reality the bullet still travels with the same drop rate.

    opaww
    The red is a correction By Silvertip 44...Thank you for the correction

    The following table is provided as a "cheat sheet" that you can tape to your gun.
     

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    Last edited: Mar 11, 2010
  9. Silvertip 44

    Silvertip 44 New Member

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    Most bullets start out with a very small drop out of the barrel then rise up to their apogee by 50 yards if one is sighted in for 100 yards.
    ________________________________________________________________

    Opaww, make sure these guys understand that bullets never rise, they begin to depress immediately upon exit from the muzzle. The only reason that a projectile has an apparent rise is due to elevation of the muzzle in order to place it into the proper arc to hit distant points ie: artillery.
    The effect of gravity upon a projectile became really apparent to me when I spent my LBJ time in the 17th. The bore of the 8" howitzer was a perfect example. The rifling wore reasonably fast on the bottom 1/3 of the bore due to the weight of the projectile bearing down upon it due to gravity, but the rifling at the top looked almost new with square cut grooves.
    It is truly amazing that we could launch a 200 lb HE projectile into the air and hit a target the size of a tank at a distance of 15 miles. It was also amazing that all four guns in the battery could fire on one command and all four projectiles would hit within mere yards of each other at that same distance.
     
  10. opaww

    opaww New Member

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    Absoluty good point
     
  11. opaww

    opaww New Member

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    We have many knowledgeable people as members of the board, if any of you would like to take a part of this instruction on better shooting long range target please feel free to do so. Sense I am trying to do this from one good brain cell left and it takes me some time just to get much of anything done.
     
  12. willshoum

    willshoum New Member

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    Bullet Drop

    Are you fam. With Lazzeroni 7.82 war bird. They say the round doesn't drop out to 300 yards. and the round will take out a 1,000 animal out to 1,000 yards with the right placement. Does that sound correct. Any takers. Wills in da Swamp In La. One Shot Kill...... Lazzeroni's, I'll need to Morgage my house to Buy the one I want.
     
  13. opaww

    opaww New Member

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    They say the Lazzroni will shoot a MOA at 500 yards, this I will have to see for myself but it is possable. The warbird is a 308 mag. and almost any 308 mag should preform about the same in a good rifle.
     

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    Last edited: Mar 11, 2010
  14. Silvertip 44

    Silvertip 44 New Member

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    Tell us more about the Lazzeroni war bird. Now that's something that I am completely unfamiliar with.
    Opaww, I'm glad you started this thread and more than that I'm glad I was directed to this forum and could meet up with you guys. This is the first forum that really gets into detail with the subject and makes me think and that could be dangerous sometimes. Firearms and the study of external ballistics is a very interesting subject and I can spend hours on end simply reading about it.
     
  15. willshoum

    willshoum New Member

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    $7,000 Lazz #3,ooo scope

    I had the opp. to shoot this awsome riflle, ofcourse it was only one shot because of the limited amount of ammo. I filled a one gal. plastic paint can with water and tapped down on the lid. set this on a 55 gal drum. Stepped off about 100 yrds. Looking thru the scope I could almost read the print. I was expecting alot of recoil, but to my surprise it was no worse than 20 ga. field load. This was a sight to behold when that round went thru that can filled with water. the plastic pieces were scattered all over and the steel cover was shaped like chineese wok. You can get the low down doing search on Lazzeroni rifles. Check out thier site on long distance shooting. Wills in da swamp in La. One shot One Kill.
     
  16. IGETEVEN

    IGETEVEN New Member

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    What ever rifle and caliber you choose, it all boils down to three very basic and fundamental points for me.

    1. Natural Point of Aim


    2. Wind doping basics


    3. Become very intimate with your rifle

    Let's presuming you're prone shooting, learn how to get into the prone position properly, learn to relax to the point of falling asleep on your rifle, and handle recoil without flexing into it or fighting it.

    Proper grip/trigger pull and breathing are key as well. Learn some basics of Trig/Geometry so you fully comprehend Minutes of Angles as well as Milliradians.

    Practice consistency, learn how to do things right like it was your religion. There should be no variables from shot to shot, from session to session, from trigger-pull to trigger-pull.

    Jack
     
  17. cpttango30

    cpttango30 New Member

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    Lazzeroni are rich man rifles. They are all proprietary cartridges only loaded by Lazzeroni. HE biases his names on the grove diameter vs the standard american way of biasing them on the land diameter.

    They are fast and the do shoot flat but, you are shooing cartridges that are over bored and they can burn up some barrels.

    If you want light recoil and 1k accuracy then get a 22-6mm AI. Have your barrel throated for the nice 90gr SMK. The draw back to this cartridge is you might get 1000 shots out of a barrel if you are lucky.
     
  18. Wambli

    Wambli Member

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    I've had a few exchanges with John Lazerroni and he trully believes in his product and lives/breathes ballistics. He also uses his own products doing exactly what he expects them to do. Taking game animals at long ranges reliably and cleanly. His products are hand made out of top of the line components and throughly tested before they leave his place. If you can afford the price tag you can be certain that you'll never have to return a Lazzeroni rifle because it did not work as advertised.

    In order to undrestand his market you have to realize that John does not make rifles for taking deer behind the barn. He is also not after target shooters for the most part. But if you have the hunt of a lifetime coming up with the potential of taking a trophy that'll make the books, one of his guns will assure you that equipment shortcomings is NOT going to be the reason you failed...
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2010
  19. willshoum

    willshoum New Member

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    You left one out. The guy that supposedly shot an Indian at over a 1,000 yrds. The chief said of the gun, the rifle that shoots today and kills tommorow. Yes, 10 k would be a big investment, and the ammo ain't cheap. But shooting this rifle is awsome. Even at my age we can still have dreams. I want to thank all of you for your input, and I'm sure I'll be hearing more on this subject. By the way I read the book behind the crosshairs, and 2 or 3 others that were on snipers. Thanks again. and God Bless. Wills in da Swamp in La. One Shot One Kill. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends........PS I've got the breathing part and the trigger pull down pat, It's the friggen fire ants when in the prone position that throws me off target!
     
  20. Ubergopher

    Ubergopher New Member

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    ...I refuse to spend more on a rifle than I do on a car.

    That's just me though.