Live Tissue Training

Discussion in 'The Club House' started by DOC_Hinman, Sep 15, 2009.

  1. DOC_Hinman

    DOC_Hinman New Member

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    I'm new here, so I'll give a quick intro. I am active duty Army, a medic in 3rd ID.
    I have heard that there are civillian companys that can provide both EMS and Military medics with live tissue training. I havent heard much details about it because of nondisclosure agreements (thank you PETA), but what I have heard is the animals, usualy swine or goats, are kept unconsious from before it begins untill they die, either from **** ups or leathal injection at the end of the day.

    My question is: Does anyone here have a problem with this kind of training for medical personel? I think its a great idea, but i'm kind of biased. I want the best, most realistic training possible before my boots hit the ground overseas. Would most rational people support this idea, or is in not just PETA nuts who would be upset?

    Also, I heard that they cant use "ballistic injuries," aka "shoot the damn thing and then take care of it." Ideas on this? Ok to cut but not shoot? What about burns? or amputations? If you think its ok to do in the first place, where should the line be drawn on the injuries they can recieve, if at all?

    Witchdoctor 4-Hotel
     
  2. bgeddes

    bgeddes New Member

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    When I got out of the Army and left Ft. Bragg (20ish years ago) I KNOW they were still using the 'Goat lab' at Fort Sam. The SF medics all had to complete it to pass. If I recall it was a gut shot .30-06 on a full grown goat.

    For that level of training, I have zero problem with it. The folks training for that job don't have years to do an internship and learn to treat high level trauma. I'm on the fence for Civilians, stuff like this tends to get out of hand.
     

  3. skullcrusher

    skullcrusher New Member

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    Imho, animals in full is good to go. Pigs, goats, cows, manitees, dolphins, koalas, etc. Why not chimps?

    Human trauma training should be done in Emergency Rooms of established hospitals.
     
  4. IGETEVEN

    IGETEVEN New Member

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    This is as realistic trauma soft tissue and stabilization medical training you will receive, if they are still allowing it to take place. I will not go into details about this training and the type of trauma tissue injuries these animals are presented with for training and labs on a this open forum. I will say I participated in a number of them and was required to stabilize and keep alive my traumatized "animal patient" in order to graduate my SF 18D medical course training.

    Please PM me if you would like me to go into greater detail on this subject and discuss it further.

    Also, I had to correct a lot of your spelling there soldier, pay closer attention to detail, you are not a doctor yet. :)

    Jack
     
  5. skullcrusher

    skullcrusher New Member

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    Hell, Jack, why not correct punctuation as well. Conjunction function, my friend.
     
  6. IGETEVEN

    IGETEVEN New Member

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    True, I will give him a break.............this time. :)

    Jack
     
  7. DOC_Hinman

    DOC_Hinman New Member

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    Apologies for my misspelling and lack of proper grammar. My IBA needed cleaning, and I was in a rush once I looked in the lower right hand corner.
    Also, I apologize if my name offends, I just chose what my tankers call me.
     
  8. DOC_Hinman

    DOC_Hinman New Member

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    You say you don't have a problem with "that level of training." Is that just for SF guys, or military medicine in general. I'm just a run of the mill, one per platoon, PFC Combat Medic. But when I go outside the wire, I'm responsible for that entire platoon. Short of a company level mission, I'm the only medic out there. Short of a battalion level movement, I provide the highest level of care. Sure, the NCO's have more experience, but unless our PA comes with us, everyone has had the same training. So do I deserve Live Tissue Training, or is it just the 18D MOS who gets it?
     
  9. DOC_Hinman

    DOC_Hinman New Member

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    bgeddes, I'm sorry if I came across as agressive in my last post. I just would like clarification, I'm not trying to attack you.
     
  10. DOC_Hinman

    DOC_Hinman New Member

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    I would love to do that. However, there are a lot of medics, and not so many trauma patients. Also, most of the wounds in civilian ERs are unlike the kind we are likely to encounter. Even GSWs are likely to be by pistols and small caliber rifles, instead of the high velocity rifle, shrapnel, and blast injuries medics are likely to see. I could see benefit from working at a burn center.
     
  11. IGETEVEN

    IGETEVEN New Member

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    Hey DOC, PM sent on your inquires, hope it helps ya out. Let me know if I can answer any more questions concerning the animal Trauma Training labs. :)

    Jack
     
  12. Benning Boy

    Benning Boy New Member

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    Men are men, goats are goats.

    I propose the Guantanamo Bay Live Tissue Research Facility, for the ultimate in training.

    During Ramadan.

    With pork chop knives.
     
  13. orangello

    orangello New Member

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    I think this would be a good use for bears. Why trap & relocate the troublesome ones digging in garbage & harassing pets to some nice wilderness area; there are probably already bears there that won't appreciate the over-crowding. Send the bad bears to get gut shot for science. Good riddance to bad bears.

    Seriously though, a bear is probably much closer to a Marine than a goat (comparing physiology, not demeanor). :D

    What the heck are we letting those stupid & dangerous animals wander loose for anyway, geesh.
     
  14. DOC_Hinman

    DOC_Hinman New Member

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    I have always thought we should have the Guantanamo Bay MOUT Training Site. They get paintball rounds, we get ball ammo.
     
  15. canebrake

    canebrake New Member

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    Wow, sixty two years and I never thought of this type of training!

    My hat is off to you guys!

    No wonder we are saving more men in field.

    How could a sane person not see the logic in this vital training??

    F**k PETA and Cass Sunstein!
     
  16. Gus556

    Gus556 New Member

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    If it can save the life of or comfort a wounded soldier on the battlefield, I say shoot a pig, stick a goat, and burn whatever you need.
    If you studied hard, passed your tests, care for what you are trained to do, and are determined to give your brothers the best care they could possibly get under the circumstances then you will do fine.
    I am a NYS Paramedic with 13 years of experience. I know that does not compare to being a combat medic but it does compare to being confident in your training. Your training will not fail you. Sure, working on live flesh is great for getting the "feel" of starting lines, intubating, putting in a chest tube, etc. However, I do know there are a lot of training aids out there that do feel like the real thing.
    What is tough is when you have to intubate a person. In class you trained with a mannequin on a table in a well lit room or if you passed a tube in the Operating Room during your clinical rotations you were lucky. When do you get to do it for the first time in a real situation? YOU GUESSED IT...in a truck that is upside down in a 15' trench at 0145hrs on a man with half of his face missing while the truck is trickling gas into said ditch and a trooper is lighting a road flare 40' away to divert traffic! Thats WHERE!
    The first time I did a chest decompression was in a flattened house and an active, on the ground tornado about 1/2 mile over my left shoulder. I peed a little but my training kicked in and I got the job done.
    Train and talk to those with experience, that will give you what you need better than a pig with a gut wound.
     
  17. corpsmancruz

    corpsmancruz New Member

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    i'm a corpsman attached to 2nd marines.. and we do live tissue labs as part of our work ups.. and i think that if it can help me save my marine's life then it's worth it..

    and they do shoot the pig.. aside from all the amputations and lacerations that they get..

    semper gumby
     
  18. Mosin

    Mosin Well-Known Member

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    If they remove this training, I'll GLADLY donate any extra deer I shoot, if it would make a difference.
     
  19. John_Deer

    John_Deer New Member

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    Personally, I don't care what John Q. Public thinks. I want medical personnel to get the best training possible. If that mean butchering a few critters so be it. People have no qualms about shooting someones pet over a $5 chicken that should be in a pen to survive but they complain if someone uses an animal for training. That is ludacris!