Let's go shoot some...

Discussion in 'Training & Safety' started by trip286, Aug 7, 2013.

  1. trip286

    trip286 New Member

    18,658
    1
    0
    Yeah, that title was intended to grab your attention and make you go, "Oh SH!T"

    Check out this write up on this training op the author got to participate in!!

    http://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/1jnj4u/lessons_learned_from_shooting_at_police_officers/

    Copied and pasted because it makes my computer freeze momentarily, so click link at your own risk. The article in it's entirety... But you'd have to go to the site to view comments of course.

    "I got the opportunity to participate in police training exercises through my campus marksmanship club, and I learned quite a bit that I thought Gunnit might appreciate.

    What We Did: We did a variety of realistic exercises, including:

    Hostage situations
    Clearing a building with multiple active shooters
    Traffic stops

    The volunteers from our marksmanship club were the bad guys, and the police were the good guys. To keep it as realistic as possible, we were all armed with Simunition Glock 17s. They're exactly like a real Glock 17 (to the point where I'm sure you could switch the slide assembly with a real Glock and be good to go), except that they shoot marking pellets and won't chamber real ammunition. Shooting Simunition feels like shooting a 22. There's very little recoil. It's loud enough to where it gets your attention even though no hearing protection is needed (unlike a 22, where you should still wear hearing protection). Imagine a large man with big hands clapping his hands together about two feet from your face. I found a pretty good video of Simunition here (skip to 3:15 if you just want to see it shot): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0C2lwo-VjPE

    So without further ado, let me share what I learned:

    1. COPS DON'T KNOW THE LAW.

    Almost every time we did a traffic stop, the cop would immediately notice the gun in the center of the floor, confiscate it, unload it, run the serial number, and ask us if it was registered. They even arrested one of us for simply having it. In my state there is no gun registration, and it's perfectly legal for anyone to have a loaded gun in his car without a permit. Seizing the gun and running the serial is improper unless there is probable cause to believe it's illegal or stolen, et cetera. We didn't get the chance to explain any of this, because the cops became extremely aggressive and on-edge the moment they knew we were armed.

    Take-home point: Know the law, because the cops probably won't. If a cop tries to do something unwarranted or illegal, feel free to CALMLY make it known that you don't consent to what they're doing, but let them go on doing it. Your lawyer can sort out an illegal search and seizure later, but a resisting-arrest charge is harder to deal with.

    2. SHOOTING UNDER STRESS IS NOTHING LIKE RANGE SHOOTING

    Simunition hurts. It will make you bleed if it hits you in the right spot, and it always leaves an angry welt. With the possibility of the pain and the realism of the scenarios, I was about as stressed as I could be without being in a truly life-or-death situation. Here's what I noticed:

    Your hands will shake like mad. My front sight was bobbling far more than normal. When I went to change magazines, I could hardly grab the darn things or feed them into the gun because my hands were shaking so much. I am not a sweaty guy, but I had to wipe my hands at one point because I was losing my grip on the gun. It took me a good thirty seconds to fumble my fingers into my pockets to grab a magazine (I didn't have a mag pouch).
    You probably won't see your sights. During one traffic stop, my passenger and I were pulled out of the vehicle. My passenger was searched, but I was not, and my gun was pretty well concealed at 4 o'clock in my IWB holster (Crossbreed Supertuck Deluxe). Ten feet to my left, an officer is going through the passenger's pockets and has just spun around to where he can't see me. Ten feet in front of me is an officer who's facing my direction but is distracted, reading the details of my fake driver's license into his radio. I've been told to start shooting if I see an opportunity, and I see it. Time slows down, I agonize for what seems like a minute but what is actually two or three seconds over whether I'm going to do it. Then I do it, there's no looking back, I step to the side, lift my shirt, pull my gun, and fire five times before I can process what I've done. I'm sidestepping quickly, firing, keeping my isoceles, and only on my 11th and final shot is there a pause in the action and I remember that my gun has helpful little posts on the front and back. Cease-fire is called. I wasn't shot and I had hit the cop in front of me five or six times through purely instinctive aiming.
    Moving helps. Those who moved, as I did in the scenario above, didn't get shot. Those who camped in corners of the building or otherwise stayed stationary, did.
    Capacity matters. When my hands were shaking and I had tunnel vision and I was confronted with an opponent, my accuracy wasn't great and my opponents weren't going to fall over if I just grazed them in the arm. My first instinct was to keep shooting, keep shooting, keep shooting until I couldn't shoot any more. I remember reading that when multiple police officers fire at one suspect they use something like 5 times more rounds per officer than one officer does shooting alone at one suspect. The sound coming from their fellow officer's guns freaks them out even more, they can't process it in the heat of the moment, they don't know what's going on, they just shoot and shoot until the threat is ended. That's pretty much how I felt.

    Take-home point: If you think standing at the range and shooting at a stationary paper target is going to prepare you to defend yourself, you're dead wrong. I love going to the range, I love being intimately familiar with my guns, but that alone will not help you survive a self-defense scenario. I'm no great fan of James Yeager, but he did say something that now strikes me as very true: In a stressful situation, you won't default to your highest level of training, you'll default to whatever level you've totally mastered as muscle memory. Participate in exercises like this if you can, take courses that teach defensive shooting and put you in actually stressful scenarios.

    3. COPS DON'T SHOOT WELL.

    As I mentioned before, stressful shooting is nothing like range shooting. Unfortunately, it seems like too many officers are shooting their 50-round annual qualifications and not much else. Realistic shooting scenarios are even more infrequent than range time. This isn't just anecdotal - one of the officers supervising the training told me as much. Our marksmanship club members were obviously performing far better than the police - in some cases we were running a kill-to-death ratio of up to 5.

    Take-home point: Support your local police force. Volunteer for events like this. If they are spending their budget responsibly but still don't have the money to train their officers properly, consider donating whatever resources you can or voting in local elections for more funding.

    At this point I've made this wall-of-text long enough, so I hope this was an interesting read! I'll answer questions in the comments."
     
  2. cottontop

    cottontop Guest

    Cops are generally pretty ignorant.
    ct
     

  3. Jstrong

    Jstrong New Member

    984
    0
    0
    Very great post,would like to see the question/answer section in his comments after I get off work and can pull it up
     
  4. orangello

    orangello New Member

    19,156
    0
    0
    I have to wonder, would dude have posted if the cops had known the law verbatim and applied it perfectly to every situation and later put three rounds in him before he got off even one round?
     
  5. JimRau

    JimRau Well-Known Member Supporter

    5,044
    95
    48
    Most LEO's are not ignorant. It depends on the standards and training in your state and agency. Where I worked we got monthly law updates from the Colorado District Attorneys Assn. so we were up to date on the law and the recent changes.
    Simunitions are a great training aid. As you said they HURT!! This is as close to real combat as you can get in a training atmosphere. Unfortunately not all agencies have the resources for this training.
    It sounds like your experience shows the need for more training in your local agency! ;)
     
  6. trip286

    trip286 New Member

    18,658
    1
    0
    What would there be to report?
     
  7. orangello

    orangello New Member

    19,156
    0
    0
    My point exactly. Not saying the guy shouldn't report HIS less-than-satisfactory results; just saying he should also refer to his classmates' results; also saying that we should consider that non-screw-ups probably greatly outnumber the screw-ups, else there would be a TON of such incidents reported.

    Kinda like you never see the news story about a routine safe landing for a commercial airliner.
     
  8. Vikingdad

    Vikingdad New Member

    14,922
    0
    0
    I honestly don't think I could participate in something like that. I just don't think I could overcome my own training and shoot someone, even with simuiniton. Plus there is always the possibility of things going horribly wrong and somebody ending up dead.
     
  9. trip286

    trip286 New Member

    18,658
    1
    0
    Well this was a training situation with an entire department, not just one cop.
    I get the impression that it's a campus police force, but having been around the block a time or two, I know that many campus police are retired or semi retired LEOs. Louisiana Tech, where I intend to go back to school eventually, actually gets their police force the same way the municipalities get theirs- applicants go through the civil service entrance exam, apply for the job, and if you get it, you're sent to train for that job... alongside/with new hires from the municipal police, and they do their continuing education training with the municipalities. They are actually real police, with the exact same training. They just have a much smaller jurisdiction.
     
  10. trip286

    trip286 New Member

    18,658
    1
    0
    I'm so excited about the idea, I'm going to send the article to my cop buddy and ask if they do anything like this.
     
  11. FrontierTCB

    FrontierTCB Active Member

    1,147
    5
    38
    Very true. I also wonder if these were officers going through an academy class. Not that it would matter much as far as their marksmanship, but most any officer that has been on the street for a length of time should surely know if their state requires gun registration.

    Edit: Disregard just read the post about it being Campus Police. All bets are off.
     
  12. Vikingdad

    Vikingdad New Member

    14,922
    0
    0
    Well, I have never been in combat. I expect that you would probably perform better than I would. I hope to get some training someday but until then I would avoid this sort of exercise.
     
  13. Vikingdad

    Vikingdad New Member

    14,922
    0
    0
    Two of the campuses around here use law enforcement students as officers once they qualify. I think they move up from there. I have talked with some of the supervisors at the community college where many (most?) of the LEOs come from and they seem pretty clueless to me. I have sold them stuff and they have even asked me "are these legal?" at times and they honestly don't know the answer. One time, on campus, they asked if I had any ammo for sale and when I said it was illegal for me to have any on campus they were genuinely surprised. Seems really strange to me.

    And no, they weren't trying to trap me or set me up. They have all bought lots of stuff from me so they are good customers.
     
  14. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

    21,444
    551
    113
    Re: Campus Police- be careful what size brush you paint with. Yes, there are small schools that basically have a security guard. Large Universities with large, well manned, equipped and trained professional law enforcement agencies.

    Yes. simuntions HURT. Instant feedback saying "You just screwed up!" Key point- this was a TRAINING exercise. You make mistakes while training in order to correct that before you hit the real world.

    Cannot tell you how many experienced solders and Marines I have seen practicing building clearing. Step into the 4th room, and the female brings up a pistol- and THEY find they just shot to bolt lockback in the THIRD room. POP! (Forgot to put a fresh mag in the rifle)
     
  15. trip286

    trip286 New Member

    18,658
    1
    0
    I read back through the article and comments, and I get the impression these were "regular" cops in training, but couldn't discern if they were actually veteran law enforcement (and you'd be surprised how many of those are completely oblivious to their own rules and regulations), or rookies, but it does appear that it's not an actual police academy where they're completely fresh to the world of law enforcement.
     
  16. bowhunter17

    bowhunter17 New Member

    142
    0
    0
    How much does simunition hurt compared to paintball?
     
  17. trip286

    trip286 New Member

    18,658
    1
    0
    I still have a little crescent shaped scar on my leg from 2004. They hurt a bit more than paintball, but nothing outrageous.
     
  18. Mason609

    Mason609 Active Member

    1,850
    0
    36
    For my State and Local PD:

    As far as criminal laws go - I would agree they know most of them.

    As far as everything else - traffic laws (unless it is super recent), our GUN LAWS (again, unless it's super recent), pot (which was decriminalized a few years ago - up to 1oz - ticket if you are under 18), loitering/non criminal trespass... they have no clue, even the seasoned veterans seem to not know. Or, they just don't care.

    As for my encounters with LEOs in other states, I believe they all could use more (and better) training.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2013
  19. Mason609

    Mason609 Active Member

    1,850
    0
    36
    Training for my deployment to Afghanistan, we did a simunition exercise - against members of our own unit.

    At first, it was kind of hard even aiming at a brother, but it was quickly a non issue once they shot at us.

    As long as personal safety equipment is worn, it's not particularly lethal (well, shouldn't be).
     
  20. WebleyFosbery38

    WebleyFosbery38 New Member

    7,510
    2
    0
    "Train as you fight" are words to live by, literally. I spent 21 years training to fight Iranians, Russians and others via Simulated battle, in the field. You can talk about something in a classroom till the cows come home but until your actually employing the techniques youve been taught, you have no conformation to believe they will work.

    Police have a tough job made even tougher by the fact that they go straight from basic training into the warzone with very little force on force experience before they are asked to make the right decisions 100% of the time. If qualifying twice a year with your service weapon was all it took to be a Audie Murphy, every cook, Mechanic and REMF in the Army would be a Chesty Puller!

    Even Simulation has its drawbacks, people will do things when they know they cant die that they would never try when they know that real lead is flying by your head but nothing is perfect.