[BrownH]

Based on your training or other knowledge, in what scenario's would it be legal to use a firearm in self defense?

What if someone was attacking you with a knife?
If someone was after you with a baseball bat?
What if several people were attempting to jump you?

 

[ranger_sxt]

It all depends on what your state laws say.

In Arizona, if you are reasonably in fear of your life, meaning you think that you could convince 12 random people off the street that you were, you may use deadly force to defend yourself. A knife or a bat could kill you.

 

[robocop10mm]

Shoot

+1 on Ranger sxt's comment. In Texas, like Arizona you must be in imminent fear of serious bodily injury or death. That fear must be reasonable. There was a case in Walker County (Huntsville) of two vodoo practicioners. #1 made it known in the community that he had some "voodoo dust" that would kill anyone sprinkled with it. He planned to sprinkle it on #2. They crossed paths one day and, sure enough, #1 started sprinkling the dust on #2. #2 shot and killed #1. Kinda hard to find 12 jurors that believe in voodoo. The community standard would not uphold the resonablness of the belief. #2 took a plea to manslaughter and got 10 yrs probation.

 

[Spartan]

shoot to kill

i think that even if your state laws are specific to what the circumstances might be in which you can legally use deadly force, someone should still be discretionary in that venture, and even when your life is threatened, you do not necessarily have to use lethal force. obviously if the other person is armed and is threatening you or someone else, you have an obligation to put that person down and keep him down. in the state of washington, which is a stand your ground state, you have the right to use deadly force to stop the commission of a felony, that being said, essentially, you can shoot the suspect when he is breaking in to your vehicle, but once he is driving down the road, the crime has already been committed. if someone attacks you with a bat or a knife, the odds are that you should more then likely, if you are a person who is aware of your surroundings, which if you carry a gun and are not then shouldnt be carrying a gun, but odds are that you will notice the fact that you are about to be attacked with a knife or a bat, people really arent that sneaky unless you are completely oblivious to it. in that case, you have the ability to use force, but you should use it with discretion, there is no need to kill the attacker, when you can effectively shoot him in the leg or the arm and wound him. if it doesnt stop the attack, you can at that point resort to more force, though in the case of an attack with a gun, i wouldnt hesitate to use lethal force, cant ask questions later if you're dead. there was a case i read about in which a suspect broke into a home, the homeowner caught the suspect and pointed a gun at him, and told him to leave, the suspect laughed and advanced on the homeowner who fired a warning shot. the warning shot ricochetted and hit the suspect, killing him. the police arrived and arrested the homeowner. why? because the homeowner informed the police that he wasnt trying to kill the suspect and that he had fired a warning shot which had not been intended to hit the suspect. that being the case, he was tried and convicted of involuntary manslaughter. the fact was, that had he told the police that he had fired in self defense while in fear for his life and in defense of his family and home and had in fact intended to kill the suspect, he probably would not have been charged or tried. the law is subject to interpretation, and that interpretation is never our own. i dont believe this individual was actually convicted by a trial jury i believe he plead because there were probably extenuating circumstances, but the facts are still the same despite who the people were, to even allow a criminal to file a lawsuit against a homeowner for being injured while attempting to commit a home invasion or a burglary is something one would only find in the united states. its ridiculous.

 

[ranger_sxt]

in that case, you have the ability to use force, but you should use it with discretion, there is no need to kill the attacker, when you can effectively shoot him in the leg or the arm and wound him.if it doesnt stop the attack, you can at that point resort to more force, though in the case of an attack with a gun, i wouldnt hesitate to use lethal force, cant ask questions later if you're dead.

You made good sense up until that point. You need to stop watching TV, and spend some time at a training class. No legitimate trainer anywhere advocates shooting to wound. If you are in fear of your life, you are in fear of your life. You need to shoot to stop the threat. The best way to do that, under stress, is multiple shots to either the central nervous system (upper spine or head) or one of the major blood vessels in the center of the chest.

In another thread, you said one should never take head shots, because the head is too small to hit, and moves too much. Now you want people to shoot at the arm or leg, which is even smaller, and moves even more?

there was a case i read about in which a suspect broke into a home, the homeowner caught the suspect and pointed a gun at him, and told him to leave, the suspect laughed and advanced on the homeowner who fired a warning shot. the warning shot ricochetted and hit the suspect, killing him. the police arrived and arrested the homeowner. why? because the homeowner informed the police that he wasnt trying to kill the suspect and that he had fired a warning shot which had not been intended to hit the suspect. that being the case, he was tried and convicted of involuntary manslaughter. the fact was, that had he told the police that he had fired in self defense while in fear for his life and in defense of his family and home and had in fact intended to kill the suspect, he probably would not have been charged or tried. the law is subject to interpretation, and that interpretation is never our own. i dont believe this individual was actually convicted by a trial jury i believe he plead because there were probably extenuating circumstances, but the facts are still the same despite who the people were, to even allow a criminal to file a lawsuit against a homeowner for being injured while attempting to commit a home invasion or a burglary is something one would only find in the united states. its ridiculous.

I think you just disproved your point. If one were to take your stance of shooting to wound, and accidentally kill your attacker, you could be charged with manslaughter.

 

[pioneer461]

"...effectively shoot him in the leg or the arm and wound him."

I'd like to see someone hit a moving leg under a combat situation. That is simply not a relilable option. If the agressor is standing still enough to give you a shot at his leg, then he really isn't much of a threat.

"...in the case of an attack with a gun, i wouldnt hesitate to use lethal force,..."

Any time you discharge a firearm, no matter what your intended target is, you are using lethal force.

"...fear for his life and in defense of his family and home and had in fact intended to kill..."

We don't train to "shoot to kill." We shoot to stop the threat.

Spartan, with all due respect, may I suggest you take a serious self defense class? Not CCW, or hunter safety, but a serious self defense class. Many of the things you say seem to be urban legend, or woefully misinformed. Please do not use TV, the movies, the Internet, or news media as a base for information involving use of force.

 

[Don Lu]

Be careful w/the advice you give....somone may actually listen to you.

 

[Spartan]

wow

lol, talk about jumping the gun, never said any of that was what i was trained to do or was it what i would do if it was me. bottom line for me, if i had to defend myself i would fire for the center of mass and i would fire more then once and i can guarantee that i would hit what i was aiming for and the guy wouldnt get up. in that same respect, if i felt that i could fire five rounds at a downward angle and hit him in the thigh four times as he advanced wounding him severely enough too the point that he was no longer a legitimate threat, providing he was not armed with a firearm himself, i would and when asked, i would simply state that i was shooting to kill and that i was just a bad shot. maybe youve never taken a life, but its a freaking horrible thing to have to live with, it doesnt matter if they are american criminals or iraqi insurgents, lethal force must be on a case by case basis and discretionary, if one cannot make that split second decision within half that split second time then they shouldnt be carrying. they ask you during your police office oral board whether or not you would be able to take a life if it was necessary, not sure how others fair in that question, but the hesitation is what i think disqualifies people, you have to respond quickly and effectively to the answer, you cannot second guess yourself. what i say and what i do are two very different things, deadly force if absolutely necessary, i would rather go home knowing i spared a life then that i took one.

 

[Spartan]

tv?

and just as an adendum, i havent watched tv since 1998, what the hell is there really worth watching? i dont even have cable. not sure what the reference is to tv, but keep the attacks coming they are definitely amusing. life isnt about being that charles bronson dirty harry john wayne shoot em up have no mercy kind of guy. discretion is the better part of valor, discretion, there is no question that you have to be decisive, but retain discretion, if absolutely necessary, there is no hesitation, a good man would no this and act upon it, only a fool would not recognize the dire straits of his situation. give them nothing, but take from them everything

 

[ranger_sxt]

lol, talk about jumping the gun, never said any of that was what i was trained to do or was it what i would do if it was me.

But you are recommending it for everyone else? What makes you so special that you get to shoot to kill, whereas everyone else needs to shoot to wound.

bottom line for me, if i had to defend myself i would fire for the center of mass and i would fire more then once and i can guarantee that i would hit what i was aiming for and the guy wouldnt get up. in that same respect, if i felt that i could fire five rounds at a downward angle and hit him in the thigh four times as he advanced wounding him severely enough too the point that he was no longer a legitimate threat, providing he was not armed with a firearm himself, i would and when asked, i would simply state that i was shooting to kill and that i was just a bad shot.

Once again, why are you so special that you can shoot that way, but you recommend to everyone else that they should only shoot to wound.

And you are suggesting that people perjure themselves?

maybe youve never taken a life, but its a freaking horrible thing to have to live with, it doesnt matter if they are american criminals or iraqi insurgents, lethal force must be on a case by case basis and discretionary, if one cannot make that split second decision within half that split second time then they shouldnt be carrying. they ask you during your police office oral board whether or not you would be able to take a life if it was necessary, not sure how others fair in that question, but the hesitation is what i think disqualifies people, you have to respond quickly and effectively to the answer, you cannot second guess yourself.

Your spewings reek of internet commandoisms. Yes, killing someone can be a life-altering event. However, police boards are not looking for the steely-eyed killers you are eluding to.

what i say and what i do are two very different things, deadly force if absolutely necessary, i would rather go home knowing i spared a life then that i took one.

Why are you allowed to make these deadly decisions, and suggest to everyone else that they should just shoot to wound?

 

[ranger_sxt]

and just as an adendum, i havent watched tv since 1998, what the hell is there really worth watching? i dont even have cable. not sure what the reference is to tv, but keep the attacks coming they are definitely amusing. life isnt about being that charles bronson dirty harry john wayne shoot em up have no mercy kind of guy. discretion is the better part of valor, discretion, there is no question that you have to be decisive, but retain discretion, if absolutely necessary, there is no hesitation, a good man would no this and act upon it, only a fool would not recognize the dire straits of his situation. give them nothing, but take from them everything

The TV reference is based on everything you are saying comes from bad television and B-movies.

 

[Spartan]

?

there is very big different between what you are eluding that i said and what i said exactly, my stating my opinion or my perspective is no different then you stating your opinion or perspective but you seem to find some sort of distorted perverted pleasure in attacking my position and making defaming allegations in an attempt to contradict whatever it was i was making a point about, and what exactly is the purpose of reposting my post over and over and over again other then to take up room, i know what i wrote and i know what i said, i dont understand what the issue is really, i never said i was special in any case, and people will do whatever they want to do or whatever they determine is necessary in the given situation, stop being twelve years old, im not whipping you because you arent doing what i told you to do, i never told you or anyone else to do anything, from my recollection the entire post was hypothetical. how many times have you entertained what actions you would take in a given situation and then discovered that in that situation you acted completely different. i never told anyone not to use force, or said they had to act the way i told them to, i couldnt give a rats *** how someone else reacts, its their life. but keep it up, you are the only thing that put a smile on my face after a long day, lol, are you as pretty as you type?

 

[ranger_sxt]

there is very big different between what you are eluding that i said and what i said exactly, my stating my opinion or my perspective is no different then you stating your opinion or perspective but you seem to find some sort of distorted perverted pleasure in attacking my position and making defaming allegations in an attempt to contradict whatever it was i was making a point about,

Perhaps it was my public schooling, or my lack of time on walking the beat, but I understood that you are saying that people should shoot to wound, as a better option than stopping the threat permanently.

Didn't you, here, advocate not shooting to the head, because it's too hard, but here you are saying that we all should shoot at the moving legs and arms? I just want to make sure I understand your knowledge of tactics.

and what exactly is the purpose of reposting my post over and over and over again other then to take up room, i know what i wrote and i know what i said,

I do that so others can see what we're talking about. It is a little common courtesy thing I picked up, like punctuation, capitalization and paragraphs.

i dont understand what the issue is really, i never said i was special in any case, and people will do whatever they want to do or whatever they determine is necessary in the given situation, stop being twelve years old, im not whipping you because you arent doing what i told you to do, i never told you or anyone else to do anything, from my recollection the entire post was hypothetical.

Correct, this is hypothetical, but when someone throws out information that is the exact opposite of everything that any legitimate trainer is saying, and can cause people to get into legal trouble, I feel obliged to correct them.

how many times have you entertained what actions you would take in a given situation and then discovered that in that situation you acted completely different.

More often than I would like, but that's why I practice.

i never told anyone not to use force, or said they had to act the way i told them to, i couldnt give a rats *** how someone else reacts, its their life.

Then why even participate?

but keep it up, you are the only thing that put a smile on my face after a long day, lol, are you as pretty as you type?

Umm, to part one, I'm glad I could be of service. To part two, I don't swing that way, but if you like the taste of penis, more power to you.

 

[Spartan]

?

hey ranger, just wanted to know if it would be ok with you to print out this discussion, i thought that the guys on the STOP TEAM would get a real kick out of the banter between us, it was all in fun after all, wasnt it, no hard feelings? i mean we are all adults here, right? just wanted to see if you had any reservations over the other guys getting a good laugh. (by the way, they wouldnt just be laughing at you, i put a real effort into being a little silly as well)

 

[Spartan]

lol

well well, i never indicated i would be doing anything with your penis, hence the question as to whether you were as pretty as you typed, i figured if you put this much effort into something so trivial you would do the same when you were on the receiving end, lol. again, jumping the gun and assuming there princess, love ya for all your effort though, you are a sweetheart.

 

[ranger_sxt]

hey ranger, just wanted to know if it would be ok with you to print out this discussion, i thought that the guys on the STOP TEAM would get a real kick out of the banter between us, it was all in fun after all, wasnt it, no hard feelings? i mean we are all adults here, right? just wanted to see if you had any reservations over the other guys getting a good laugh. (by the way, they wouldnt just be laughing at you, i put a real effort into being a little silly as well)

Sure, print it out. If you think your friends can get a kick out of it, more power to them. I'm just glad that I don't live in your jurisdiction.

 

[Don Lu]

but you should use it with discretion, there is no need to kill the attacker, when you can effectively shoot him in the leg or the arm and wound him.

This discussion is crazy, especially the "cop" suggesting it is good judgement to aim for legs and arms during and intense encounter where there will be lots of adrenaline, nerves, heavy breathing and movemnt from both parties. I dont want to assume, and I havent heard you say it directly..are you in law enforcement spartan..really ? Nope, I bet he's a kid with aspirations of being some kind of superhero TV cop. I was off from work today and a little bored, so I went back and read some of Spartans prev post in other discussions. Nothing about him or the way he "carries" himself implies LEO, he also does contradict himself. he just reminds me of a mall ninja or internet commando..you should have seen some of his post..he carries 3 knives, a kablar stick and somehting else along w/pepper spray and a gun. He frequently get into encounters where he has to use one of the items 7-8 self defense items he carries...Im not making this up either...Im calling BS on Spartan. Shame on you.

 

[Don Lu]

The "Cop" even gives advise on how to make a scilencer and get away w/the shooting by using a drop gun..terrible....Still calling BS, and there are so many more rediculous post, I just thought this one was commical coming from a ninja..I mean "cop".

well there are silencers and there a suppressors, and in some places even compensated barrels are illegal. the easiest way to make silencer/suppressor, is with a small plastic soda bottle, just kind of tape it around the front of the weapon, works better on rifles then pistols but works on pistols too, you can try to mob it like in the movies and just hold your pistol in it, but i wouldnt reccommend that. there is still an audible pop because it isnt a real silencer, but is suppresses some of the bang and a good amount of the flash. pillows work too, but who carries those around. i would just simply reccommend more range time though, because if you get yourself to the point where you can actually effectively hit a target from about 75 feet away with a pistol, then who needs a silencer? one is backfire, two is gunplay, if you are going to shoot someone, shoot once, and hit what you are aiming at and then walk away...in this scenario, i would also reccommend wiping the rounds before loading the magazine, and also the utilization of a drop gun at the scene. it might even be smart to pick up the actual shell casing and toss it somewhere else, pisses the forensics guys off. lol (havent done any of this so not speaking from experience, lol)

 

[pioneer461]

Perhaps if you'd learn to use grammar and punctuation, your thoughts would be better relayed to the readers. Sorry for any misunderstandings or hard feelings.
Pioneer

 

[Tony Soprano]

In Indiana we have the castle doctrine,shoot any one breaking into your home,carjacking you,or coming at you with any type of weapon,even if you are a 3rd party.The doctrine relieves you of the duty to retreat(THATS KEY).Only a few states have the castle doctrine ,read your state laws carefully!!!!!!