legal question about full autos, black powder, and manufacturing

Discussion in 'Legal and Activism' started by texaswoodworker, Dec 24, 2011.

  1. texaswoodworker

    texaswoodworker New Member

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    This is something I have been wondering for awhile. I know that the ATF does not concider black powder guns to be firearms (at least not enought to regulate them), I also know that full auto guns are heavily regulated. So the question is, what does the ATF concider to be full auto? Would a hand cranked gatling gun be concidered a full auto? If it used black powder paper cartridges, would it even be concidered a firearm? Would there be any regulations you would have to follow if you wanted to make one for yourself? No, I don't plan on making one. I am just curious about this and thought it would be an interesting conversation.:D

    Thanks
     
  2. Axxe55

    Axxe55 The Apocalypse Is Coming.....

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    i was kind of wondering the same thing. Rick on Pawn Stars was trying to buy a Gatling gun on an episode, and on another one he said he didn't handle modern firearms because they didn't have an FFL. might be the same legality that you can use the hand crank device on semi-auto fireams and they are legal to own. on a Gatling gun, it only fires as fast as you turn the crank on it. i have also seen kits for DIY 22lr Gatling guns that said no FFL needed to make them.
     

  3. BillM

    BillM Active Member Supporter

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    If it fires more than one shot with a single pull of the trigger it's full
    auto in the eyes of the BATFE.

    (Yes---if you have a double barrel shotgun that
    fires both barrels with one pull of the trigger, you are technically
    in violation.)

    Gatling guns---if MANUALLY operated, are not considered machine guns.
    If you hook a motor to it, then it's a machine gun.

    SO---this is OK ----http://www.mgewholesale.com/colt/

    This, not so much--at least not without a bit of paperwork and
    a tax stamp:Dillon Aero: M134 Gatling Gun, Miniguns, M134 Gun Systems, Naval Mounts, Helicopter Mounts, Vehicle Mounts
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 24, 2011
  4. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    Bill nailed it. Hand cranked Gatling is NOT a full auto.

    The measure of an antique firearm is not defined by whether it uses a BP cartridge. It is measured by (1) Age- made before 1899, OR (1) uses LOOSE powder and bullet.

    A newly made cartridge arm that is a repro of an antique will not be considered an antique unless it shoots ONLY a "no longer available" cartridge. Say, 12mm PINFIRE.

    C&P from 18 US Code section 921

    (16) The term "antique firearm" means -
    (A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock,
    flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system)
    manufactured in or before 1898; or
    (B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if
    such replica -
    (i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or
    conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
    (ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition
    which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which
    is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial
    trade; or
    (C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle
    loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black
    powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For
    purposes of this subparagraph, the term "antique firearm" shall
    not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or
    receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading
    weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily
    converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt,
    breechblock, or any combination thereof.
     
  5. trip286

    trip286 New Member

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    So just to be really clear here c3, a gatling gun that uses a hand crank system, but ALSO shoots modern ammo, is legal? Depending on local restrictions of course? In the eyes of BATFE?
     
  6. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    Clarke Bros. gun shop outside of Warrenton VA had a hand cranked Gatling in .38 Special for sale for several years (finally sold it) As Bill said, it is an ordinary firearm at law. Now, IF you add an electric motor, so that one push of the switch caused the barrels to spin, and shoot until you took finger off da button, NOW you have a full auto.

    The Gatling that John Wayne used in Rooster Cogburn- not a full auto.

    The Gatling used by Jesse Ventura in Predator- full auto.
     
  7. texaswoodworker

    texaswoodworker New Member

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    Cool, so a hand ranked gatling gun is legal regardless of what it fires, and is concidered an antique if it fires pinfire, loose black powder, or any other obsolete/commercially unavailable ammo? I kind of want one now. :D
     
  8. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    Close. Antique requires AGE, or repro of AGED gun that does not use modern ammo,or uses loose powder.

    Want yerself a gat, huh? Well, belly up to the counter, whip out yer checkbook, and start filling out that 4473, podner. Here is a good one in .45 Colt for a measly $6.499, plus shipping. Hey- when you have to say "Get off my lawn!", let them know you mean it.

    Gatling Gun For Sale
     
  9. trip286

    trip286 New Member

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    I don't consider that to be a bad price for such a gun! Too bad the wife needs a new car.
     
  10. texaswoodworker

    texaswoodworker New Member

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    Not a bad price, but still too high for me. :D I guess if I want people to stay off my lawn, I have to stick to loading up the ol 30-06 :eek: :D
     
  11. TimL2952

    TimL2952 New Member

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    yea...the gatling gun wouldn't be considered full auto. Does the Curio and Relic rule apply?
     
  12. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    IF the Gatling is 50 yra old, it would be a C&R. If you have an ORIGINAL Gatling made prior to 1899, it is antIque firearm, and not under the 1968 Gun Control act.
     
  13. TimL2952

    TimL2952 New Member

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    That would explain why a toy so fun and is still legal and realtivly "easy" to get are soooo expensive
     
  14. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    the old originals are expensive because they are a super rare highly collectable item.

    the modern manufacture ones are pricey because they are actually very complex devices with lots of barrels, lots of materials and lots of machine work.