Kalashnikov Platform Review:The truth about AK47 and it's derivatives

Discussion in 'General Rifle Discussion' started by Mark_Van_Goth, May 30, 2013.

  1. Mark_Van_Goth

    Mark_Van_Goth New Member

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    I'm the proud owner of a Zastava M70 AB2(made in 1982) and a former professional operator of it.I can say...What a rifle!In many cases,for those who served in an army where an AK was the stardard issued rifle, these rifles are true leggends.
    But frankly speaking:How really good are these rifles?What AK can be considered the best one- the one that is "above all"?

    I want to hear from you your opinion about these rifles-based on your own experience with it.

    My opinion & experience
    I shot the following weapons:AK47(Made in 1958), AKM, AK74,AK74M,AK 105, AK 102, AK 103, Zastava M70 B2, Zastava M70 AB2,WASR 10, AMD 64,IMI Galil(I know it is not a "real" AK BUT IT ROCKS),Zastava M92, Zastava M77, Zastava M21

    My personal Review:
    -Really reliable, the rifle will simply work in almost any enviroment.But it is not that reliable in extreme sand conditions(If you dont believe me, try it)
    -Easy of use:It takes literally 10- min to learn how to use, assembly and disassembly it.
    -It is accurate enough to kill somebody till 100-150 meters, even more.It all depends on the caliber, ammo, barrel lenght, etc(For example:I shot a modified Zastava M70 B1 that had a 510 mm barrel...believe or not, it was almost as accurate as an M16 at 100 m (110y))
    -Controlability:This is absolutely one of its weakest points.It requires a lot of practice in order to be shot properly and let the operator to get used to the recoil(because of the the way it works).
    Magazine change:Not the best...very simple, but not the fastest available.Again, it require a lot of practice in order to be REALLY FAST.You can improve it, but you'll have to spend extra money in customiz or a lot of time.
    Modification acceptance:It can be modified in so many different ways and it is so easy to get the work done(almost everything can be upgraded on the rifle...with no gunsmitting).
    Durability:While in the army and in the paramilitary forces(TO), I've seen seen several guys abusing these rifles, but they simply keep working...as I TOLD YOU...THESE RIFLES WILL KEEP YOU ALIVE.In the worst case, you'll get killed before they will stop working.

    Conclusion:
    It was like a good friend while I was in the army.Maybe it is not the best rifle in the world, but it would be definitively my weapon of choice.
    Best AK rifle ever made?I opt for the Zastava M70-Yugoslavians were well know for several things, but in my opinion one of the most relevant is the fact that they're great gunbuilders(They have never invented or reinvented any weapon...but they were real masters in copying and improving existing weapons-just take in consideration great weapons like the Zastavas M70, M92,M53, M59/66, M76, M91 and the M48)
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2013
  2. orangello

    orangello New Member

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  3. HankStone

    HankStone New Member

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    Any AK that is arguing with you is bad medicine,I myself have much respect for the AK!
     
  4. Mark_Van_Goth

    Mark_Van_Goth New Member

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    Vz 58

    Well the vz.58 is not an AK, since it works in a completely different way(Short-stroke gas piston, it has striker instead of the hammer, a hold-open bolt mechanism, etc).It is only similar to the AK rifles, but not the same thing.Anyway...even if not a member of the family, its a great rifle!My brother got one and let me try it.I would define its platform as "somehow better" than the AK one(Just for being honest:Highest rate of fire, higher precision, better operating mechanism(More controllable, ease mag change, loadable with stripper clips, hold-bolt-open mechanism, and a more "convenient" safety).Definitively, it si not a weapon which you would never notice.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2013
  5. locutus

    locutus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The AK is an awesome weapon. Especially now that the Russians have abandoned the "pumpkin rollers" and developed a decent modern round for it.

    The 5.45X39 is great military round.
     
  6. Mark_Van_Goth

    Mark_Van_Goth New Member

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    Well...

    Well...the 5,45 exist since 1974(if not even before that year)...I don't know what did you mean by that("...now that the russians have abandoned...").
    Funny but true, one of the best calibers to chamber an AK in is the the 5,56x45 NATO.Even if it is not the "original" caliber, it is far more effective in terms of accuracy and stopping power than a 7,62x39 or the 5,45x39-because of the way it "reacts/behave" once it hits the target.
     
  7. primer1

    primer1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't know about more effective than 7.62, but 5.45 is more effective than 5.56 because it is a longer bullet, which causes a lot more damage because of when the bullet tumbles in the target.
     
  8. locutus

    locutus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I agree that the 5.56 is a more effective round, by far, thsn either of the Russian rounds.

    My point was that the 5.45 was an order of magnitude improvement over the the old timey pumpkin roller 7.62.X39.

    BTW, I've heard nothing about the Russians abandoning the 5.45. quite the opposite, their new "AN-94" is chambered for it, as is the RPK-74.
     
  9. Jersey700PB

    Jersey700PB New Member

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    5.56 in no way shape or form has more stopping power than a 7.62x39. While the 5.56 does out perform in accuracy at most ranges the 5.56 is extremely lacking in the stopping power department which is why most are screaming to get away from the 5.56. Research some of the reports from the military in the Middle East. The 5.56 simply does not "drop" a target.

    Military contracted many firearms companies to create an AR that could fire a 30 cal projectile. In all honesty if the 7.62x39 operated properly in an AR there's a good change the 5.56 would have been replaced. The 7.62x39 doesn't operate well in the AR platform do to the slanted side on the casing. Check out the 300 black out.. Which is similarly to the 7.62x39 which is regarded as superior to 5.56 and will ultimately replace it.
     
  10. orangello

    orangello New Member

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    http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=558

    My dream AR. :D
     
  11. Mark_Van_Goth

    Mark_Van_Goth New Member

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    Maybe I didn't explained well, let me try again:
    1)As you said, the 7,62 will drop the targer-TRUE
    2)The 5,56 is not only more accure-till 135 m it causes a severe damage to the tissues(Once it hit the targets, it usually tumbles)-The 7,62 has a greater penetration force, but it causes a relatively "clean" wound
    3)The 7,62x39 is not that inaccurate-It just need much more training to compesate the bullet fall and to control the power of the cartridge(recoil-especially in full auto)
    4)The 7,62x39 is in my opinion a great caliber:It let's you get the job done in almost all the situations.

    P.S.:Would you like to know something funny?I still remember something that our corporal told me while we were training at the range(in the JNA)...He told me "You don't necessarly need to aim directly at the target and wait for it...if the son of a ***** hides behind a wall, then shoot directly the wall-In most cases, the bullet will pass through the wall and neutralize the threat-That's what the 7,62 is good for."
     
  12. Jersey700PB

    Jersey700PB New Member

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    Well if you want to get into tumble and tissue damage the debate gets a ton deeper. Most people will compare a hollow point 223 to a fml 7.62x39. That is a completely weighted comparison.

    The 7.62 will not pass through clean I can promise that. It will go through but the exit wound will be much larger than the entrance and it will be anything but clean.

    As far as the accuracy is concerned I believe this is far over blown. It depends what application we are talking about. Are we talking urban style combat or somewhat close quarters out to 100-150 yards? Because I can guarantee my 108 lb girlfriend can shoot my ak as good as my m4 in those ranges. Are you ranging your ar to 500-600 yards off hand in a serious military situation? Well I hope you have a right twist and some heavy bullets.

    Just not very practical..
     
  13. Jersey700PB

    Jersey700PB New Member

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    It's also worth noting that several military studies show that in most instances the 556 doesn't create the yaw effect that you referred to. I read a study once by a military doctor that claimed that in most cases the 556 passed through clean without any yaw or significant damage especially at close ranges.. It has been opined that the bullet would need to pass through at least 5 inches of tissue before any defragmentation even started.
     
  14. primer1

    primer1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If you can guarantee that your girlfriend can shoot like that we will need pics to prove it. Do us a favor and wait until it is real hot outside.
     
  15. Jersey700PB

    Jersey700PB New Member

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    Haha will do.
     
  16. Mark_Van_Goth

    Mark_Van_Goth New Member

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    Here we go someone it is worth to talk to

    Pretty simple:We are talking about 100-150m(110-160 yds).This is the range were an AK will offer the best performance.In any case:Shooting a rifle at a range greater than 200m(220 yards) with any rifle that has iron sights ONLY, is simply stupid.If you want to deliver accurate and effective fire, the only way to go is the use of optics at that distance.

    Regarding the caliber:The "standard" m43 ammo will pass through in a relatively "clean" way.If we are talking about the the m67 ammo(which is still 7,62x39) developed by Serbians, then you're right.It will cause much more damage by maintaining the same stopping power(the capability of dropping down a target).The M67 was designed in an attempt to match the the capability of tumbling of the 5,56 or, at least, to cause the same or similar damage to the tissues(frankly speaking:It doesn't cause nothing like that...even if, actually,it causes much more damage than the "standard" M43 ammo).
     
  17. therewolf

    therewolf New Member

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    As a range shooter, I find my AKM to be

    a safe queen. I collect milsurp, and so

    as such will never get rid of it, but it

    wants in accuracy, where other rifles shine.

    A lot of folks like to take them to the range

    anyway. Hey, it's a free country, and their

    expenditure on ammo is helping

    the economy, right?
     
  18. Jersey700PB

    Jersey700PB New Member

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    They are both great rounds but I prefer the knockdown power of the 7.62x39 if my life depended on it.

    I'm a bolt gun shooter at heart so anything beyond 100 yards, maybe 150, I don't feel the need of a "battle rifle". What I expect out of one is inside those distances I should be able to put a full magazine on center mass without difficult and with relative speed. My AK can meet those desires easily. While bench shooting it most likely would not meet an AR as far as group size, but that isn't the purpose of the rifle for me. If we are comparing precision AR's with high power optics, were comparing apples and oranges.

    I don't claim to be the greatest shooter in the world, and I can shoot a 10 shot group about the size of an apple off hand with relative speed at about 50-60 yards with my WASR-10. That is more than sufficient so ill take the knockdown power over sub moa.

    There is no doubt the 556 tumbles and causes severe damage. A 556 is plenty capable of delivering fatal shots. But a guy that bleeds to death can let more rounds go. That's been the biggest gripe overseas.
     
  19. Jersey700PB

    Jersey700PB New Member

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    One curiosity I always had about the 7.62x39 is that many believe it to be hard to control. There seems to be a drastic difference in opinions of the recoil aspect of shooting an AK or an SKS, etc vs an AR.

    I find the recoil to be extremely mild and very manageable but most of my experience is in shooting .308, 30-06, .270, etc. I'm curious to know if the perception of the recoil is based on the shooters experience with different calibers. To me the 7.62x39 is nothing in the recoil department, but a heavy .223 shooter may disagree. Curious to hear from those more used to shooting lighter caliber options.
     
  20. orangello

    orangello New Member

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    At the end of the day, that 7.62x39 is just gonna tear up too much of the squirrel's meat to be as good of a squirrel gun as a .223.

    ;)